mesmo a mim, que vivo só de viver

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Portuguese term or phrase:mesmo a mim, que vivo só de viver
English translation:even me, who live just by living
Entered by: Oliver Simões

16:45 Oct 14, 2023
This question was closed without grading. Reason: Answer found elsewhere

Portuguese to English translations [PRO]
Poetry & Literature / Portuguese Literature
Portuguese term or phrase: mesmo a mim, que vivo só de viver
It's a line from Fernando Pessoa's poetry in the voice of Alberto Caeiro.

"Sim, mesmo a mim, que vivo só de viver,
Invisíveis, vêm ter comigo as mentiras dos homens
Perante as coisas,
Perante as coisas que simplesmente existem.
Que difícil ser próprio e não ver senão o visível!"

I'm not 100% sure how to translate "mesmo a mim" and "vivo só de viver".

Both Google Translate and DeepL translated "vivo só de viver" as "I live just to live". DeepL included "I live just by living" as an alternative translation. Clearly, there is a difference between "viver para viver" (live to live) and "viver de viver" (live from living?), which I really don't know what it means. I found only one instance of "live from living", in a poem translated from French:

"Living upon a never quenched thirst,
Tree in the soul whose living roots are flesh
Who lives from living in the quick of life..." (Paul Valéry)

Note: I couldn't find "vis de vivre" or "vis juste de vivre" in French, but I did find another poem by Valéry in which he used the preposition "de": "Le vent se lève, il faut tenter de vivre", translated as "The wind is rising, we must try to live". In this particular case, the translation seems right.

I discard "live by living" because it's not the correct translation either. It's akin to "vivo vivendo" or "vivo através do viver". So the question remains, "live just to live" or "live just from living"? I'm leaning toward the latter.

As far as "mesmo a mim", GT output "even I". Again, this sounds like a mistranslation. "Even I, who live just from living..." So what? There is no sentence continuity that justifies this translation. On the other hand, "even me" makes it seem like it's an ungrammatical subject of "who live just from living" when it's not. What a dilemma! In "normal" speech, the three lines would read as:

Sim, as mentiras invisíveis dos homens perante as coisas vêm ter comigo, mesmo a mim, que vivo só de viver.

ir ter com: procurar (Priberam)

I thought of "even me". Something like this:

Yes, even me, who live just from living,
Invisible, the lies of men before reality…
Come to seek me,
Before reality that merely exists.
How hard to be oneself and not see but the visible!

As far as the last line is concerned, I was undecided between "but the visible" and "but that which is visible". I chose the former because it's more concise, although the latter sounds more clear. Any comments on this would be greatly appreciated, even though it's not question-related.
Oliver Simões
United States
Local time: 03:36


Summary of answers provided
4even speaking for myself who lives just for a living
Adrian MM.
Summary of reference entries provided
see
liz askew

Discussion entries: 6





  

Answers


2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
even speaking for myself who lives just for a living


Explanation:
Syntax , grammar and punctuation are wrong in the translations quoted: it's I who *lives* and there is no bounding by a comma.

Otherwise, we could argue about rhyming and non-rhyming poetry translation strategies - even in languages I know - until the 'cows come home'.

Even as a published schoolboy poet myself (4 poems in an anthology of Regency Press, London and New York, 1968), constantly denied by an unpublished ProZ regular, I don't bleive it is necessary to be a poet/ess to translate poetry. Cut to my ex-university lecturer in German who has produced rhyming poems in English for literary and musical works: 'Nine of the twelve English texts have a named poet or translator. In 1784 ... Verse translation Derek McCulloch ©2009'


    Reference: http://medium.com/practice-in-public/10-life-quotes-that-if-...
Adrian MM.
Austria
Meets criteria
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
Notes to answerer
Asker: Adrian, first of all, there is no "eu" (I) in the original. It's not the subject, as shown in my reordering of those three lines. How come there is "no bounding by a comma"is present in the original? Now commenting on your translation: The "speaking for myself" part sounds like a cliché that Pessoa would never use. At least, I've never seen it in any of the poems or prose of his that I've read to this day. Diverging from the original poetic structure doesn't sound like a good idea, either. And the meaning has to be preserved as much as possible. You changed the meaning in the part that says "just for a living". He's not talking about "a living" but "living", period. Thank you, anyway.

Asker: Correction: How come "there is no bounding by a comma" if a comma is clearly present in the original? Actually two commas, one before and one after "mesmo a mim". Regarding your last comment about being a poet or not being a poet, that's irrelevant to my questions. Thanks.

Asker: There is also an issue with your subject-verb agreement. The grammatical form is "I who live" (not "lives"). Here are a couple of examples: "I (Who Have Nothing)", a song by Tom Jones, "I Who Have Never Known Men" (a novel by Jacqueline Harpman).

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Reference comments


1 hr peer agreement (net): +2
Reference: see

Reference information:
https://gravitando.wordpress.com/tag/fernando-pessoa/

Yes, even I, who live only to live,
Invisible, they come to meet me,
Men’s lies in the face of things,
In the face of things that simply exist.

How difficult to be yourself and see only what you can!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2023-10-15 09:32:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

BTW

even me, who liveS


if you are going to use your version

liz askew
United Kingdom
Does not meet criteria
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8
Note to reference poster
Asker: Thank you. I don't think "live only to live" is the right translation, as explained in my question. There is a huge difference between "viver de" and "viver para". The translator changed the meaning to "viver para", which is not what the poem says. What the translator made into subject ("I") is not a subject in the poem. Actually, it's connected to the object of the sentence, as my rewording of the poem shows. Thank you, anyway.


Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Eduardo Amparo
10 mins
agree  Andrew Bramhall: "to live only for a living" is a total distortion of the meaning, as it implies you are earning money just for being alive, which is a complete nonsense.
14 hrs
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