Glossary entry

Russian term or phrase:

умение жить

English translation:

savoir-vivre, knowing how to live

Added to glossary by Natalia Volkova
Oct 14, 2012 13:29
11 yrs ago
Russian term

умение жить

Russian to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature Expression
This expression is used in a discussion of France's conduct during WWII. The speaker is accusing the French of being unscrupulous in their strategy for survival. So it's more than the French's "ability to live". It's their tendency to do whatever it takes, even collaborate, if that was a means to survival. Here's a note I got from the author: "«уметь жить» т.е. уметь првильно строить отношения с людьми и оборачивать любую ситуацию на выгоду себе, часто не очень честными и благородными методами."

I'd be inclined to explain this in full in the text, but the phrase "умение жить" is the subject of some wordplay in the dialogue immediately following.

Here's some context, including the banter where the phrase becomes distorted and inverted:

Французы умеют превращать позорные поражения в блестящие дипломатические победы так же органично, как израильтяне превращают блестящие победы в позорные дипломатические поражения. Французы *умеют жить*. И сегодня Интендант, как-то стыдливо усмехаясь, словно его окончательно достал мой отец, провозглашает:

ИНТЕНДАНТ: За *неумение жить*!
ПРЕСС-СЕКРЕТАРЬ: Потому что *умением жить* мы завистливо восхищаемся, а неумению – восхищенно не завидуем.
ИНТЕНДАНТ: Брезгливо восхищаемся. А не завидуем – да, восхищенно. Но все-таки слишком редко.
СТРЕЛОК: Умение жить без *умения умирать* не стоит и отстрелянной в дерьмо гильзы!
ПРЕСС-СЕКРЕТАРЬ: А зачем *уметь умирать*. Ещё ни у кого это ни разу ни не получилось. Лучше уж уметь не умирать.

Any ideas how to translate this idea concisely?
Change log

Oct 28, 2012 06:12: Natalia Volkova Created KOG entry

Discussion

Natalia Volkova Oct 16, 2012:
Why do you think that Rifleman could not say this phrase?

What makes you think that it would be out of character?

During the WWII ALL men from 18 to 70 were sent to war in the Soviet Union. This war was called Great Patriotic War here. Many soldiers were highly educated. A lot of scientists, professors and other intellectual élite were in the trenches as well.

So it is quite normal when a Soviet soldier in a book about in WWII knows foreign languages.

Ethan Bien (asker) Oct 15, 2012:
@David, @Natalia I agree with David that the French phrases wear out their welcome before the end of the dialogue. The weak link in the chain is the Rifleman, for whom an elegant turn of phrase would be out of character. I think I will use him to transition away from these somewhat dubious french phrases into more general terms (the abilities to live/die).
David Knowles Oct 14, 2012:
To Natalia I agree about French being appropriate here, but I can't see how to follow it through in all the references without the language becoming forced. If you can, then I'll agree with you!
Natalia Volkova Oct 14, 2012:
The use of the French language sounds natural and logical here, because as the asker mentioned there had been "a discussion about France's conduct during WWII. The speaker is accusing the French of being unscrupulous in their strategy for survival." So in this very context French is "to the point", in my opinion.
Natalia Volkova Oct 14, 2012:
It`s better to possess a skill of "savoir-survivre".
Natalia Volkova Oct 14, 2012:
I propose a toast to the lack of skill of savoir-vivre.
Alexandra Schneeuhr Oct 14, 2012:
За *неумение жить*! ....Let's drink *against* ? ;)
David Knowles Oct 14, 2012:
За *неумение жить* How are you going to render this? I can see that savoir-vivre and savoir-mourir might work, but the last phrase is difficult as well: лучше уж уметь не умирать. I wonder if it might be better to paraphrase.
The Misha Oct 14, 2012:
Another option would be to hustle, because essentially that's what your author's definition of savoir-vivre is here. However, once you go this way you lose the nice play on vivre/mourir, unless you really start taking liberties with the original text. I'd stick with the vivre/mourir option.

To me this is yet another great example of why it is that I personally hate translating other people's fiction (which I don't) - as opposed to writing your own. You always have to make sacrifices.
Alexandra Schneeuhr Oct 14, 2012:
@ Natalia Not a bad option!
Actually, one may juxtapose here 'savoir-vivre' (a generally dignified notion) and 'savoir-survivre' (somewhat collaborationism-flavoured), and from here on to proceed to 'savoir-mourir...
Natalia Volkova Oct 14, 2012:
And what about the translation of this phrase: СТРЕЛОК: Умение жить без *умения умирать* не стоит и отстрелянной в дерьмо гильзы!

I personally can`t fancy "joie" de mourir - here and in general! As to savoir-mourir it fits not badly in this situation.
Alexandra Schneeuhr Oct 14, 2012:
The second one is more tricky. How would you go about the Shooter's remark - "But the 'joie de survivre' isn't worth much unless you also know to die with dignity"? "Se mourir noblement/dignement" is no good here, I guess... (( May be you do not need too much French in this passage after all.

...The subject matter of your translation is truly interesting and сomplex, lucky you ))
Ethan Bien (asker) Oct 14, 2012:
I like that idea! Displaying an excessive amount of 'joie de survivre' might imply what the author had in mind. I wonder if there's a french phrase or a corrupted french phrase that could be used later in the conversation, where the speakers discuss "умение умереть"...

You should post your proposal as a proposed answer.
Alexandra Schneeuhr Oct 14, 2012:
An interesting subject... Did you consider using a French expression here?
May be 'joie de survivre' would work, as opposed to commonly used and easily recongnized 'joie de vivre'?

Proposed translations

+7
9 mins
Selected

savoir-vivre

(a noun)
ability to live life well and with intelligent enjoyment, meeting every situation with poise, good manners, and elegance

savoir-vivre in Webster's New World College Dictionary

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 34 mins (2012-10-14 14:03:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


"умение жить" as opposed to "умение умирать":

"savoir-vivre" as opposed to "savoir-mourir"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2012-10-14 15:19:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I propose a toast20:58

I propose a toast to the lack of skill of savoir-vivre.

...It`s better to possess a skill of "savoir-survivre".


Something like that.
Example sentence:

Ernaux contests the idea that middle- class culture is the legitimate culture, that middle-class savoir-vivre is the only one of any value.

Peer comment(s):

agree Susan Welsh
19 mins
Thank you Susan!
agree The Misha : Savoir-vivre and savoir-mourir, of course
53 mins
Thank you the Misha!
agree MariyaN (X)
3 hrs
Thank you Maria!
agree Iryna Crany
3 hrs
Thank you Iryna!
agree Sasha Spencer
3 hrs
Thank you Sasha!
agree Alexandra Schneeuhr : I'd prefer 'savoir-survivre', if you do not awfully mind (to distinguish somehow between the good old art of living and the war-time collaboration tricks). It'd go nicely with 'savoir-mourir' in the next passage, too
15 hrs
Thank you. Why should I mind? I have already mentioned the both expressions in my explanations to the answer and in the discussion box!
agree cyhul
59 days
Thank you, Cyhul!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+1
1 hr

knowing how to live

I'm worried that savoir-vivre/mourir won't carry through properly, so I'm trying another option. I was thinking about whether to put "survive" in at one or more point rather than "live", because that gets over the idea of turning things to one's advantage, but I'm not sure it helps.

Rough abbreviated translation:
To not knowing how to live!
Knowing how to live is celebrated, but not knowing - we don't celebrate that.
No good knowing how to live without knowing how to die.
What do you mean? Knowing how not to die is much better.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Natalia Volkova : It might be a good choice as well but I think in this case the French charm and “la splendeur” of the phrase are unfortunately lost.
32 mins
See my discussion entry. I agree that my answer is more prosaic!
agree LilianNekipelov : Yes, absolutely.
1 day 19 hrs
Something went wrong...
5 hrs

knowing how to stay alive

It's a bit wordy but, if I understand the historical context, I would call say it means "knowing how to stay alive" or "doing whatever it takes to stay alive".
Something went wrong...
14 hrs

a knack of living

не совсем "то" по смыслу, на мой взгляд, но все же...
Something went wrong...
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