AllegroTrans (asker) Jul 10, 2021:

Aistriúchán sona gach duine agus bíodh deireadh seachtaine maith agat

Conor McAuley Jul 9, 2021:

Hear hear to most of that. I'm not sure that putting "Eire" on the coins (beautiful, by the way!) and stamps was a political act, Republicanism, "26 counties of Ireland" is a bit fiddly to put on coins and stamps, and I mean that as humour not sarcastically.

I have some English (and Northern Irish and also Scottish, I think) in my veins, happy to admit it.

Maybe if England wins the Euro (and I hope it does) it will break away from the Union? Stranger things have happened.

AllegroTrans (asker) Jul 9, 2021:

On "Éire" ROI needs to take some of the blame for "Sassenachs" continuing to refer to "Éire". Their government consistently used the Irish language name of the country for decades, printed it on all their stamps and coins and effectively encouraged the misstaken notion that the Republic was called "Éire" in English whereas in fact (and totally aside from politics) the name simply means "Ireland", i.e. the whole of the island with that name (the "island of Ireland" in PC speak). The Brits are of course not without blame - referring to the "British Isles" albeit no part of Ireland is within Britain (Northern Ireland is in the United Kingdom but not Great Britain). Irish school geography textbooks have maps of "Britain and Ireland" but not of the "British Isles". The BBC need to take a rap for calling the Irish PM the "tea shock" - it really is quite easy to pronounce the word properly and you don't need an Irish accent to do so. And while we're at at it, long live the apostrophe...

Conor McAuley Jul 9, 2021:

It was fairly obvious that my comment was directed at you, Adrian.

It's nothing personal, but in various ways Chris (AllegroTrans) and Nikki, who I very much respect as translators, have invalidated your answer in part or in whole, as have I, so there's nothing much to add.

You yourself only rated your confidence as 3.

God help us, let's leave it there.

In my defence, I was initially constructive and not destructive, unlike some who post here, give me credit for that, I then made a small point about "trial", and then Nikki got the whole thing going again, thankfully as it turns out I think.

Fin ?

Adrian MM. Jul 9, 2021:

@ Conor It's OK, Conor, to address me by my name. Excuse the Éire anachronism that I - once competing for the London-Irish athletics club mid-1980s with that name on the track suit top - have now corrected.

I otherwise assume readers have studied or clocked up experience in drawing and settling pleadings for civil as well as criminal trial and, despite a common misconception know that civil juries, both in the UK and Ireland, can award civil damages.

I also picked up on Bridge's ligitation-stage point for stade de plaidoiries to widen out the process from a pleading spoken or written and that, especially in tax cases, may never reach court.

Conor McAuley Jul 9, 2021:

That may well be, but the underlying points remain valid.

Also, if you were writing in Irish Gaelic, I would let "Eire" pass (even without the fada), but since you're writing in English, I suggest that you call the country "the Republic of Ireland" or simply "Ireland", unless you want to pass for somebody who still uses pre-WWII English. (The "Free State" -- ditto.)

And lastly, I am long gone from Ireland, but I assume the legal system there is largely modelled on the UK system, for better or for worse.
An occasional look at The Irish Times online confirms this point from time to time.

And I'm sure Irish lawyers are wealthy enough from various scandals to not have to waste their time on celebrity rubbish.

I don't apologise for almost always having an opinion and for defending the truth. A romantic would say that it's almost a national trait.

Adrian MM. Jul 9, 2021:

civil trials @ Conor McA As Nikki Scott-D points out, there are civil trials in E+W - cut to the hefty civil jury award of damages to Sir Elton John for libel and in the Republic of Ireland. It is you who ought to be telling us that point and not the other way round https://www.mccannfitzgerald.com/uploads/Litigation_in_Irela... 'Claims for defamation and false imprisonment are the only common type of civil action now ordinarily tried by jury.'

Conor McAuley Jul 9, 2021:

I would suggest that we agree to disagree and leave it there, it has been a long week. Hopefully you have noted my stated and unstated points.

Conor McAuley Jul 9, 2021:

Getting a bit funny and not in a good way.

To summarise, you didn't use "case manager" and "trial litigation" is compromised to a great extent. 20% of the answer is ok, then.

I am not suggesting you do any simplification, (for about the tenth time, it feels like), I am asking you not to use the word "trial" and telling you that there is no need to do so.

In any case, if you can simplify appropriately and without betraying the text, then why not?

AllegroTrans (asker) Jul 9, 2021:

As for simplifying court documents I agree 100% that there is a good argument for doing this. But it isn't the job of a translator. Period.

AllegroTrans (asker) Jul 9, 2021:

For the record I didn't use "case manager" in my translation, but simply chose (as recommended by the site) "most helpful answer".

Conor McAuley Jul 9, 2021:

A case manager does not always play (rarely plays?) the role of a "solicitor" (the equivalent in a French context, I mean of course), which is another fatal flaw in Adrian's answer.

I could just tell people what the elephant in the room is, but I think people are more intelligent than that, and hopefully you've got the message.

Conor McAuley Jul 9, 2021:

The word "trial" is avoidable, making life easier for the person being summoned, I repeat, and may only just be acceptable in this context on a very fine legal point.

All you needed to say instead was "conduct a case in court", instead of "conduct trial litigation". If you think that is dumbing down, then you are mistaken.

And, it is, also, a question of using sensitive language -- "trial" and even "litigation" will act as triggers for some people, even if they're only up for a speeding ticket.
And I'm no "snowflake".

[Edit] If you don't get the parallels with the previous question, then well, I think you're being disingenuous. There many several parallels that I will leave people to figure out for themselves.

(I seem to remember that the Asker in that question decided to leave out the name of the court in French...that must have been handy for the "accused"...a valid reason for not putting in an appearance, because he or she didn't know the name of the court, I should think. But I digress.)

So, to sum up: no, no, no! Hahaha.

AllegroTrans (asker) Jul 9, 2021:

Conor You cannot "dumb down" just because laypeople need to read court documents. There are formal expressions that simply cannot be changed. You can't call a "lawyer" a "brief" or a "magistrate" a "beak" just because Fred down the pub likes the terms or that's what the Sun newspaper calls them. There has been a certain degree of movement to accesible language in E&W (e.g. plaintiff became claimant) but I don't see any of this happening in France. Formal in - formal out.
I don't understand your reference to the previous KudoZ.

Conor McAuley Jul 9, 2021:

One last post Trial: "1.
a formal examination of evidence by a judge, typically before a jury"
(Oxford Languages)

My very last and most important point is that you're not talking to your audience, again -- this is a summons that will, presumably, be served on a poor ignorant "lay person", who doesn't earn €120 an hour like a lawyer, and who will read it and who will be misled to think that they're Jack the Ripper and in serious trouble.

The use of the word "trial" is completely avoidable...

A similar thing (in several ways) happened here: https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/697...

AllegroTrans (asker) Jul 9, 2021:

and "trial litigation" ia a broad term

AllegroTrans (asker) Jul 9, 2021:

Nope Any final hearing of a civil case (where contested) is a trial. Absence of a jury is totally irrelevant. All of this is public misconception and the fact that most laypeople associate trials with criminal cases tried by juries.

Conor McAuley Jul 9, 2021:

In fact, using the word "trial" excludes all other types of civil cases, so it is incorrect in the context, which is a very broad legal context.

Conor McAuley Jul 9, 2021:

Basic points taken, but it seems, following a shallow dive into the matter, that civil trials only take place in very restricted circumstances:

Does England have civil jury trials?
England and Wales

Serious ("indictable-only") offences, however, must be tried before a jury in the Crown Court. Juries sit in few civil cases, being restricted to false imprisonment, malicious prosecution, and civil fraud (unless ordered otherwise by a judge).

Jury trial - Wikipedia


So why confuse the issue?

Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 9, 2021:

@Conor Having worked in civil litigation, civil cases do also go to trial. The same term is used. https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/stan...

The point here is to distinguish who does what. At the end of the paragraph in question, it is stated that case managers are to take care of the litigation process, with the exception of representing the client at trial. I think there is consensus about meaning. ;-)

Conor McAuley Jul 7, 2021:

My understanding was that "trial" (see Adrian's answer) was used in relation to criminal proceedings only, whereas I believe that the text the question is about is regarding all courts, not just criminal courts (ref. "toutes les juridictions").

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Adrian MM. Jul 7, 2021:

@ Daryo: caution re leader vs. lead lawyer in E+W The "lead (lawyer)" might feasibly have picked up on my 'case team leader' suggestion, but leader to my mind is apt to reverse the meaning. In England + Wales, it connotes a QC - namely Senior Barrister - at trial 'leading' a junior, namely the case is co-pleaded by Counsel junior in rank and not necessarily in years,

Daryo Jul 7, 2021:

@ AllegroTrans maîtres de l'affaire = some variation on "the lead (lawyer)" or "the representative(s) in charge of the case"?

Conor McAuley Jul 6, 2021:

Yes Chris, I agree, solicitor and barrister don't work in a French context, barrister is "avocat plaidant", lawyer pleading the case, but I think "representation" is fine.

Samuël your link works fine, thanks very much.

Samuël Buysschaert Jul 6, 2021:

Not in my field just found this to help with the context, a link to the FHS section and ministère d'avocat, hope i'm not mistaken.
If it can be a bit helpful.

https://books.google.fr/books?id=rQAKtn-XjzIC&printsec=front...

AllegroTrans (asker) Jul 6, 2021:

FHS Bridge and ministère d'avocat He talks of solicitor and barrister and this is one of the few occasions where I think he is quite off-beam, i.e. both terms are too anglo-centred for France. In the piece I have posted I think "ministère d'avocat" just means "the office of lawyer"