Sep 6, 2019 10:09
4 yrs ago
4 viewers *
French term

mises à l’index

French to English Art/Literary Architecture article about an architect
Ainsi furent mises à l’index pour plus d’un demi siècle les inventions lumineuses d’un des plus grands poètes de l’architecture moderne.

Discussion

Yvonne Gallagher Sep 8, 2019:
"I hope my post didn't suggest anything like this." Well yes, it certainly did or I wouldn't have responded as such!
Note that Stalin was only gaining power at this time so things not as bad as they got later...And the Art Deco movement was having an influence on popular architecture and Stalin wanted "palaces for the people"
You don't seem to know the meaning of the words I've suggested or see how close they are to the idea of "blacklist" (which can't be used here) As I said, these are strong verbs, not used lightly.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/repudia...
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/margina...
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/fall out of favor
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/rebuff and just thought of "spurn" https://www.wordnik.com/words/spurn
Ph_B (X) Sep 8, 2019:
Yvonne, "Are you really saying that anyone can translate an art history text by just looking up words in a dictionary... be clueless, with no specialist knowledge...?" I hope my post didn't suggest anything like this. I was referring to the author's informed decision to use mettre à l'index, and to our responsability, as translators, to translate it as accurately as possible. "No need for any note…I never said or inferred that the ST is badly written at all on any of these questions" I didn't imply that you did and I did say in my post that I think the source text is very well written. Adding a note applies generally, if we, as translators, have queries about the text we're translating.<p>”I do think you shouldn’t get hung up on ONE possible meaning of a term.” I agree, which is why I gave different examples in my post above. Bon dimanche !
Yvonne Gallagher Sep 7, 2019:
@Ph_B
I am quite shocked by your post. Are you really saying that anyone can translate an art history text by just looking up words in a dictionary? So, be clueless, with no specialist knowledge required as long as there’s a dictionary? Or, for that matter, no concerns about not being native in either the source or target language?
As for the translation of the term, the words I've offered "repudiate", "marginalise", "fall out of favour" and more recently "rebuff" are all strong, especially the first 2, and certainly any of the architects finding themselves in this position would not have been in a happy place. These terms fit the context of the era, the history of the movement, and the term "mettre à l'index". You cannot use "blacklist", "ban", "dismiss" or "suppress" since none of these happened in this case.
No need for any note. I am not changing the source text at all (I never do), but translating it faithfully into correct English. And no, I never said or inferred that the ST is badly written at all on any of these questions. I do think you shouldn’t get hung up on ONE possible meaning of a term. The terms I've offered are close to the meaning you cite in the context
Ph_B (X) Sep 7, 2019:
B D Finch, " you underestimate the task and responsibility of a translator " - not if you write that note I mentioned. As I see it, changing the text is the editor's (if any)/the client's responsability, not the translator's. And the strength of the French expression fits in well with Stalin's ways of doing things. Bon dimanche !
B D Finch Sep 7, 2019:
@Ph_B I think you underestimate the task and responsibility of a translator in this context. Blacklist is inappropriate and "mises à l’index" need not be taken to mean that, though during Stalin's time it would have been wise for architects and those commissioning buildings to watch their backs.
Ph_B (X) Sep 7, 2019:
Yvonne, I trust you on what happened or didn't happen to this style of architecture, and while it's useful to know, so that the translation is as accurate as possible, we're asked to translate, not to write as art historians. The author chose to use mettre à l'index and that's what we have to translate. Given the nature/topic of the text - not exactly your usual post on social media -, I'll assume the author is literate enough to have chosen their words carefully. As I mentioned in my answer, the expression can be used without reference to the Catholic Church (its historical source). The usual reliable dictionaries will, in that non-Catholic context, talk of exclusion, condamnation (ATILf) or of interdiction, défense d'utiliser (Littré). That's strong, as I hope you'll agree, and so the English translation must be just as strong. R&C and Larousse translate it as "blacklist". I'll leave it to native speakers of English to decide if and how "blacklist" and its variations can be used here. If we feel, as translators, that the source text is wrong or badly written, we can write a note to that effect, but surely we should remain faithful to the source text?
Yvonne Gallagher Sep 7, 2019:
Edna ,
Constructivist architecture was NEVER officially banned, blacklisted or dismissed at all. There was a reaction against it as it was considered to be TOO modern and ugly. Following a major competition in 1932 "Stalinist" (or Post Modern) architecture became more popular where more historical/classical elements were included i.e. "reconnaissance des acquis du passé" (a sort of picking and choosing elements of classical architecture). But there was a "Post-Constructivist" period as well with constructivist elements included so it wasn't an overnight changeover at all. "Neoclassical" or "Soviet realism" style then became popular up to the 1950s. But the Constuctivist movement continued to influence a lot of architecture and had a bit of a revival in the 1960s https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Constructivist_ar...
Daryo Sep 7, 2019:
the original "Index" i.e. the "Index Librorum Prohibitorum" was aimed at books - as expression of heretic ideas.
B D Finch Sep 6, 2019:
@Asker I think that the target of ostracism has to be human.
Edna Pais (asker) Sep 6, 2019:
the previous sentence:Sa poétique constructiviste fut à tel point honnie par les détracteurs de l’architecture innovante que dès 1930 ils lancèrent l’injure réactionnaire de « léonidisation » de l’architecture, ce au profit d’une sinistre désescalade qu’ils nommaient « reconnaissance des acquis du passé ».
philgoddard Sep 6, 2019:
Since your extract begins with "ainsi", we need to know what it says before this.
Jennifer White Sep 6, 2019:
A simple search gives the meaning here.
Edna Pais (asker) Sep 6, 2019:
Thank you. I thought of the term ostracised.
polyglot45 Sep 6, 2019:
consider the notion of blacklisting

Proposed translations

-1
4 hrs
Selected

suppressed/banned


mettre à l'index, when not used in relation to the Catholic Church, means: Le signaler comme dangereux pour qu'on s'en détourne ou l'exclue... Être à l'index. Être exclu, condamné... (http://stella.atilf.fr/Dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/advanced.exe?8...

Cambridge: "to prevent something from being seen or expressed or from operating... to prevent something from being expressed or known" (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/fr/dictionnaire/anglais/sup...

"furent mises à l’index... les inventions" > "(his) inventions were suppressed", as in:

What Happens When Technologies Are Suppressed
www.naturalresources.sa.gov.au › files › climate_change
Traduire cette page
de KM Saunders - ‎Cité 22 fois - ‎Autres articles
HOW ARE TECHNOLOGIES BEING SUPPRESSED TODAY?

Petition · Review Classified Patents to Release Suppressed Inventions ...
https://www.change.org › donald-trump-review-classifi...
Traduire cette page
According to the Invention Secrecy Act of 1951, technological innovations can be suppressed by a variety of governmental agencies if they potentially pose a ...

Would that work? Could "banned" be used if "suppressed" is not right?





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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2019-09-07 11:46:04 GMT)
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Additional note to say that I agree with polyglot45's "blacklisting" in the discussion.

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Note added at 2 days 17 hrs (2019-09-09 03:11:05 GMT)
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About "banned":
"The impact of the Russian Avant-Garde on world architecture continued, nevertheless, even after its development was cut short at the beginnings of the 1930s under Staline, when it was banned even in reminiscence" ( https://books.google.ca/books?id=LQy9TJ2yOQEC&pg=PA358&lpg=P... ),

with credit to Zerina Zaimi who quoted it here: https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/architecture/67...

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Note added at 2 days 17 hrs (2019-09-09 03:41:17 GMT)
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Still about Constructivism being banned...

"...what can result when governments impose taste on the cultural life of a nation, for if Constructivism was tolerated under Lenin's regime, it ended tragically in 1932 when Stalin banned independent artist groups. "
https://www.nytimes.com/1990/08/09/arts/review-art-a-soviet-...
Peer comment(s):

agree Daryo : banned
20 hrs
Thanks, but I no longer like it, actually. It wasn't banned. [EDIT] Actually, see additional note.
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : Constructivist architecture was never officially "banned", "blacklisted" or "suppressed". Nothing to do with church here.
22 hrs
Perhaps not "officially", but effectively banned (see addit'l note) + I was careful to point out in my answer, "when not used in relation to the Catholic Church" (as is the case here). Over the top "disagree"?
disagree B D Finch : It wasn't banned.
23 hrs
Indeed. As I pointed out in my comment to Daryo several hours ago. [EDIT] Actually, see additional note. Over the top "disagree"?
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you :)"
-2
3 hrs

blacklisted

See many uses in the link below:
Peer comment(s):

disagree Yvonne Gallagher : blacklist as a verb is usually used for people. And there was no blacklist here anyway
23 hrs
disagree B D Finch : What blacklist? It wasn't "blacklisted" and that link isn't a proper reference.
1 day 1 hr
Something went wrong...
22 hrs

ridiculed

Hello

Mises à l'index goes with "l’injure réactionnaire de « léonidisation"

The two actions together tells us that the subject was ridiculed (or you could use "rejected")

My problem with "dismissed" (which I think is a good idea) is that you merely dismiss an idea and go no further but it does not cover "l'injure réactionnaire de léonidisation".
But it's an interesting question and there are many possibilities.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Yvonne Gallagher : no one was ridiculing (making fun of) the architecture at all
4 hrs
Hello Yvonne: Not sure. He was treated as a reactionary. Maybe "demeaned"?
Something went wrong...
1 day 4 hrs

marginalised

*

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Note added at 1 jour 4 heures (2019-09-07 14:57:16 GMT)
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Or ignored, rejected...
Peer comment(s):

neutral Yvonne Gallagher : I already gave this as suggestion
7 mins
Great minds think alike, eh?
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr

dismissed

Mettre à l'index: Rejeter, pointer du doigt, indignation

Dismiss: Unworthy of consideration

"Edwin Land was a pioneer whose inventions were dismissed"

https://books.google.fr/books?id=9ntoBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT85&lpg=PT...

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Note added at 1 jour 8 heures (2019-09-07 19:05:41 GMT)
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"le chimiste Albert Hofmann espère réhabiliter son invention mise à l’index"

réhabiliter
"Rétablir quelque chose dans l'estime, dans la considération d'autrui"
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/réhabiliter

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Note added at 1 jour 8 heures (2019-09-07 19:06:50 GMT)
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http://omegalpha.over-blog.com/archive/2006-01/4

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Note added at 1 jour 8 heures (2019-09-07 19:08:50 GMT)
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Write off
3. (dismiss) mettre à l'index
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-french/...
Peer comment(s):

agree B D Finch
2 hrs
agree philgoddard
2 hrs
neutral Ph_B (X) : Is that strong enough? Mettre à l'index is not the same thing as "unworthy of consideration". [EDIT] On the contrary, this style of architecture was studied and deemed to be inappropriate (see previous sentence in the discussion).
2 hrs
disagree Daryo : it's much stronger than that - it's about banning heresies
1 day 27 mins
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : it was never "dismissed"//"written off" as in your last link is wrong.
1 day 1 hr
agree Michael Confais (X)
1 day 22 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
3 hrs

repudiated

or marginalised or more simply, as the Stalinist-era style came to the fore

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivist_architecture

fell out of favour

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Note added at 5 days (2019-09-11 13:52:36 GMT) Post-grading
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for anyone who is actually interested in an art historian's account of the Constructivists' and their designs, (never officially "banned" I repeat just not acceptable any more or winning any competitions) https://www.moma.org/documents/moma_catalogue_2105_300062983...
Peer comment(s):

agree B D Finch : This would be OK if applied solely to the situation in the USSR, but too strong for anywhere else.
1 day 48 mins
Thank you! "marginalised", "fell out of favour" are milder. Or perhaps "rebuff". But yes, context here is the USSR c. 1930
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 day 2 hrs
Reference:

The real McCoy: Index Librorum Prohibitorum

Index Librorum Prohibitorum

The Index librorum prohibitorum ("List of Prohibited Books") was a list of publications deemed heretical or contrary to morality by the Sacred Congregation of the Index (a former Dicastery of the Roman Curia), and Catholics were forbidden to read them without permission.[1]

There were attempts to censor individual books before the sixteenth century, notably the ninth-century Decretum Glasianum, but none of these were either official or widespread.[2] In 1559, Pope Paul IV promulgated the Pauline Index, which Paul F. Grendler believed marked "the turning-point for the freedom of enquiry in the Catholic world". After less than a year, it was replaced by the Tridentine Index which relaxed aspects of the Pauline Index that had been criticized and had prevented its acceptance.[1] The 20th and final edition appeared in 1948, and the Index was formally abolished on 14 June 1966 by Pope Paul VI.[3][4]

The stated aim of the list was to protect the faith and morals of the faithful by preventing the reading of theologically, culturally, or politically disruptive books. Such books included works by astronomers, such as Johannes Kepler's Epitome astronomiae Copernicanae which was on the Index from 1621 to 1835, by philosophers, such as Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason and editions and translations of the Bible that had not been approved. Editions of the Index also contained the rules of the Church relating to the reading, selling, and pre-emptive censorship of books.[5]
....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum

if your work ends up in the index, you would be in a pretty good company:

1600 Bruno, Giordano Opera omnia

1657, 1789 Pascal, Blaise Lettres provinciales (1657);
Pensées (pub. 1670), with notes by Voltaire

1663 Descartes, René Meditations (1641);
Les passions de l'âme (1649);
Opera philosophica. Donec corrig.;
+4 more

1676 Montaigne, Michel de Essays

1694, 1758 Milton, John Literae pseudo-senatus anglicani, Cromwellii reliquorumque perduellium nomine ac iussu conscriptae (1676);
Paradise Lost (1667)

703 La Fontaine, Jean de Contes et Nouvelles

1751, 1762 Montesquieu Lettres Persanes (1721);
De l'esprit des lois (1748)

1752, 1753, 1757,
1761, 1762, 1765,
1766, 1768, 1769,
1771, 1773, 1776,
1779 Voltaire Candide (1759);
Traité sur la tolérance (1763);
Lettres philosophiques (1733; revised 1778);
+38 more

etc etc a long list of "subversives" ... ending with

1956 de Beauvoir, Simone The Second Sex (1949);
The Mandarins (1954)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authors_and_works_on_t...
Peer comments on this reference comment:

neutral Yvonne Gallagher : this is not to do with the church or books at all but with Constructivist architecture
1 hr
Something went wrong...
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