Sep 6, 2019 10:09
4 yrs ago
4 viewers *
French term
mises à l’index
French to English
Art/Literary
Architecture
article about an architect
Ainsi furent mises à l’index pour plus d’un demi siècle les inventions lumineuses d’un des plus grands poètes de l’architecture moderne.
Proposed translations
(English)
3 -1 | suppressed/banned | Ph_B (X) |
4 +1 | repudiated | Yvonne Gallagher |
4 | marginalised | kashew |
3 +1 | dismissed | Kevin Oheix |
5 -2 | blacklisted | Zerina Mignard |
3 | ridiculed | SafeTex |
References
The real McCoy: Index Librorum Prohibitorum | Daryo |
Proposed translations
-1
4 hrs
Selected
suppressed/banned
mettre à l'index, when not used in relation to the Catholic Church, means: Le signaler comme dangereux pour qu'on s'en détourne ou l'exclue... Être à l'index. Être exclu, condamné... (http://stella.atilf.fr/Dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/advanced.exe?8...
Cambridge: "to prevent something from being seen or expressed or from operating... to prevent something from being expressed or known" (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/fr/dictionnaire/anglais/sup...
"furent mises à l’index... les inventions" > "(his) inventions were suppressed", as in:
What Happens When Technologies Are Suppressed
www.naturalresources.sa.gov.au › files › climate_change
Traduire cette page
de KM Saunders - Cité 22 fois - Autres articles
HOW ARE TECHNOLOGIES BEING SUPPRESSED TODAY?
Petition · Review Classified Patents to Release Suppressed Inventions ...
https://www.change.org › donald-trump-review-classifi...
Traduire cette page
According to the Invention Secrecy Act of 1951, technological innovations can be suppressed by a variety of governmental agencies if they potentially pose a ...
Would that work? Could "banned" be used if "suppressed" is not right?
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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2019-09-07 11:46:04 GMT)
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Additional note to say that I agree with polyglot45's "blacklisting" in the discussion.
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Note added at 2 days 17 hrs (2019-09-09 03:11:05 GMT)
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About "banned":
"The impact of the Russian Avant-Garde on world architecture continued, nevertheless, even after its development was cut short at the beginnings of the 1930s under Staline, when it was banned even in reminiscence" ( https://books.google.ca/books?id=LQy9TJ2yOQEC&pg=PA358&lpg=P... ),
with credit to Zerina Zaimi who quoted it here: https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/architecture/67...
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Note added at 2 days 17 hrs (2019-09-09 03:41:17 GMT)
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Still about Constructivism being banned...
"...what can result when governments impose taste on the cultural life of a nation, for if Constructivism was tolerated under Lenin's regime, it ended tragically in 1932 when Stalin banned independent artist groups. "
https://www.nytimes.com/1990/08/09/arts/review-art-a-soviet-...
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Daryo
: banned
20 hrs
|
Thanks, but I no longer like it, actually. It wasn't banned. [EDIT] Actually, see additional note.
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|
disagree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: Constructivist architecture was never officially "banned", "blacklisted" or "suppressed". Nothing to do with church here.
22 hrs
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Perhaps not "officially", but effectively banned (see addit'l note) + I was careful to point out in my answer, "when not used in relation to the Catholic Church" (as is the case here). Over the top "disagree"?
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|
disagree |
B D Finch
: It wasn't banned.
23 hrs
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Indeed. As I pointed out in my comment to Daryo several hours ago. [EDIT] Actually, see additional note. Over the top "disagree"?
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you :)"
-2
3 hrs
blacklisted
See many uses in the link below:
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: blacklist as a verb is usually used for people. And there was no blacklist here anyway
23 hrs
|
disagree |
B D Finch
: What blacklist? It wasn't "blacklisted" and that link isn't a proper reference.
1 day 1 hr
|
22 hrs
ridiculed
Hello
Mises à l'index goes with "l’injure réactionnaire de « léonidisation"
The two actions together tells us that the subject was ridiculed (or you could use "rejected")
My problem with "dismissed" (which I think is a good idea) is that you merely dismiss an idea and go no further but it does not cover "l'injure réactionnaire de léonidisation".
But it's an interesting question and there are many possibilities.
Mises à l'index goes with "l’injure réactionnaire de « léonidisation"
The two actions together tells us that the subject was ridiculed (or you could use "rejected")
My problem with "dismissed" (which I think is a good idea) is that you merely dismiss an idea and go no further but it does not cover "l'injure réactionnaire de léonidisation".
But it's an interesting question and there are many possibilities.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: no one was ridiculing (making fun of) the architecture at all
4 hrs
|
Hello Yvonne: Not sure. He was treated as a reactionary. Maybe "demeaned"?
|
1 day 4 hrs
marginalised
*
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Note added at 1 jour 4 heures (2019-09-07 14:57:16 GMT)
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Or ignored, rejected...
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Note added at 1 jour 4 heures (2019-09-07 14:57:16 GMT)
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Or ignored, rejected...
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: I already gave this as suggestion
7 mins
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Great minds think alike, eh?
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+1
1 hr
dismissed
Mettre à l'index: Rejeter, pointer du doigt, indignation
Dismiss: Unworthy of consideration
"Edwin Land was a pioneer whose inventions were dismissed"
https://books.google.fr/books?id=9ntoBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT85&lpg=PT...
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Note added at 1 jour 8 heures (2019-09-07 19:05:41 GMT)
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"le chimiste Albert Hofmann espère réhabiliter son invention mise à l’index"
réhabiliter
"Rétablir quelque chose dans l'estime, dans la considération d'autrui"
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/réhabiliter
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Note added at 1 jour 8 heures (2019-09-07 19:06:50 GMT)
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http://omegalpha.over-blog.com/archive/2006-01/4
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Note added at 1 jour 8 heures (2019-09-07 19:08:50 GMT)
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Write off
3. (dismiss) mettre à l'index
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-french/...
Dismiss: Unworthy of consideration
"Edwin Land was a pioneer whose inventions were dismissed"
https://books.google.fr/books?id=9ntoBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT85&lpg=PT...
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Note added at 1 jour 8 heures (2019-09-07 19:05:41 GMT)
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"le chimiste Albert Hofmann espère réhabiliter son invention mise à l’index"
réhabiliter
"Rétablir quelque chose dans l'estime, dans la considération d'autrui"
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/réhabiliter
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Note added at 1 jour 8 heures (2019-09-07 19:06:50 GMT)
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http://omegalpha.over-blog.com/archive/2006-01/4
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Note added at 1 jour 8 heures (2019-09-07 19:08:50 GMT)
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Write off
3. (dismiss) mettre à l'index
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-french/...
Peer comment(s):
agree |
B D Finch
2 hrs
|
agree |
philgoddard
2 hrs
|
neutral |
Ph_B (X)
: Is that strong enough? Mettre à l'index is not the same thing as "unworthy of consideration". [EDIT] On the contrary, this style of architecture was studied and deemed to be inappropriate (see previous sentence in the discussion).
2 hrs
|
disagree |
Daryo
: it's much stronger than that - it's about banning heresies
1 day 27 mins
|
disagree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: it was never "dismissed"//"written off" as in your last link is wrong.
1 day 1 hr
|
agree |
Michael Confais (X)
1 day 22 hrs
|
+1
3 hrs
repudiated
or marginalised or more simply, as the Stalinist-era style came to the fore
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivist_architecture
fell out of favour
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Note added at 5 days (2019-09-11 13:52:36 GMT) Post-grading
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for anyone who is actually interested in an art historian's account of the Constructivists' and their designs, (never officially "banned" I repeat just not acceptable any more or winning any competitions) https://www.moma.org/documents/moma_catalogue_2105_300062983...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivist_architecture
fell out of favour
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Note added at 5 days (2019-09-11 13:52:36 GMT) Post-grading
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for anyone who is actually interested in an art historian's account of the Constructivists' and their designs, (never officially "banned" I repeat just not acceptable any more or winning any competitions) https://www.moma.org/documents/moma_catalogue_2105_300062983...
Peer comment(s):
agree |
B D Finch
: This would be OK if applied solely to the situation in the USSR, but too strong for anywhere else.
1 day 48 mins
|
Thank you! "marginalised", "fell out of favour" are milder. Or perhaps "rebuff". But yes, context here is the USSR c. 1930
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Reference comments
1 day 2 hrs
Reference:
The real McCoy: Index Librorum Prohibitorum
Index Librorum Prohibitorum
The Index librorum prohibitorum ("List of Prohibited Books") was a list of publications deemed heretical or contrary to morality by the Sacred Congregation of the Index (a former Dicastery of the Roman Curia), and Catholics were forbidden to read them without permission.[1]
There were attempts to censor individual books before the sixteenth century, notably the ninth-century Decretum Glasianum, but none of these were either official or widespread.[2] In 1559, Pope Paul IV promulgated the Pauline Index, which Paul F. Grendler believed marked "the turning-point for the freedom of enquiry in the Catholic world". After less than a year, it was replaced by the Tridentine Index which relaxed aspects of the Pauline Index that had been criticized and had prevented its acceptance.[1] The 20th and final edition appeared in 1948, and the Index was formally abolished on 14 June 1966 by Pope Paul VI.[3][4]
The stated aim of the list was to protect the faith and morals of the faithful by preventing the reading of theologically, culturally, or politically disruptive books. Such books included works by astronomers, such as Johannes Kepler's Epitome astronomiae Copernicanae which was on the Index from 1621 to 1835, by philosophers, such as Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason and editions and translations of the Bible that had not been approved. Editions of the Index also contained the rules of the Church relating to the reading, selling, and pre-emptive censorship of books.[5]
....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum
if your work ends up in the index, you would be in a pretty good company:
1600 Bruno, Giordano Opera omnia
1657, 1789 Pascal, Blaise Lettres provinciales (1657);
Pensées (pub. 1670), with notes by Voltaire
1663 Descartes, René Meditations (1641);
Les passions de l'âme (1649);
Opera philosophica. Donec corrig.;
+4 more
1676 Montaigne, Michel de Essays
1694, 1758 Milton, John Literae pseudo-senatus anglicani, Cromwellii reliquorumque perduellium nomine ac iussu conscriptae (1676);
Paradise Lost (1667)
703 La Fontaine, Jean de Contes et Nouvelles
1751, 1762 Montesquieu Lettres Persanes (1721);
De l'esprit des lois (1748)
1752, 1753, 1757,
1761, 1762, 1765,
1766, 1768, 1769,
1771, 1773, 1776,
1779 Voltaire Candide (1759);
Traité sur la tolérance (1763);
Lettres philosophiques (1733; revised 1778);
+38 more
etc etc a long list of "subversives" ... ending with
1956 de Beauvoir, Simone The Second Sex (1949);
The Mandarins (1954)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authors_and_works_on_t...
The Index librorum prohibitorum ("List of Prohibited Books") was a list of publications deemed heretical or contrary to morality by the Sacred Congregation of the Index (a former Dicastery of the Roman Curia), and Catholics were forbidden to read them without permission.[1]
There were attempts to censor individual books before the sixteenth century, notably the ninth-century Decretum Glasianum, but none of these were either official or widespread.[2] In 1559, Pope Paul IV promulgated the Pauline Index, which Paul F. Grendler believed marked "the turning-point for the freedom of enquiry in the Catholic world". After less than a year, it was replaced by the Tridentine Index which relaxed aspects of the Pauline Index that had been criticized and had prevented its acceptance.[1] The 20th and final edition appeared in 1948, and the Index was formally abolished on 14 June 1966 by Pope Paul VI.[3][4]
The stated aim of the list was to protect the faith and morals of the faithful by preventing the reading of theologically, culturally, or politically disruptive books. Such books included works by astronomers, such as Johannes Kepler's Epitome astronomiae Copernicanae which was on the Index from 1621 to 1835, by philosophers, such as Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason and editions and translations of the Bible that had not been approved. Editions of the Index also contained the rules of the Church relating to the reading, selling, and pre-emptive censorship of books.[5]
....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum
if your work ends up in the index, you would be in a pretty good company:
1600 Bruno, Giordano Opera omnia
1657, 1789 Pascal, Blaise Lettres provinciales (1657);
Pensées (pub. 1670), with notes by Voltaire
1663 Descartes, René Meditations (1641);
Les passions de l'âme (1649);
Opera philosophica. Donec corrig.;
+4 more
1676 Montaigne, Michel de Essays
1694, 1758 Milton, John Literae pseudo-senatus anglicani, Cromwellii reliquorumque perduellium nomine ac iussu conscriptae (1676);
Paradise Lost (1667)
703 La Fontaine, Jean de Contes et Nouvelles
1751, 1762 Montesquieu Lettres Persanes (1721);
De l'esprit des lois (1748)
1752, 1753, 1757,
1761, 1762, 1765,
1766, 1768, 1769,
1771, 1773, 1776,
1779 Voltaire Candide (1759);
Traité sur la tolérance (1763);
Lettres philosophiques (1733; revised 1778);
+38 more
etc etc a long list of "subversives" ... ending with
1956 de Beauvoir, Simone The Second Sex (1949);
The Mandarins (1954)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authors_and_works_on_t...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: this is not to do with the church or books at all but with Constructivist architecture
1 hr
|
Discussion
Note that Stalin was only gaining power at this time so things not as bad as they got later...And the Art Deco movement was having an influence on popular architecture and Stalin wanted "palaces for the people"
You don't seem to know the meaning of the words I've suggested or see how close they are to the idea of "blacklist" (which can't be used here) As I said, these are strong verbs, not used lightly.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/repudia...
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/margina...
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/fall out of favor
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/rebuff and just thought of "spurn" https://www.wordnik.com/words/spurn
I am quite shocked by your post. Are you really saying that anyone can translate an art history text by just looking up words in a dictionary? So, be clueless, with no specialist knowledge required as long as there’s a dictionary? Or, for that matter, no concerns about not being native in either the source or target language?
As for the translation of the term, the words I've offered "repudiate", "marginalise", "fall out of favour" and more recently "rebuff" are all strong, especially the first 2, and certainly any of the architects finding themselves in this position would not have been in a happy place. These terms fit the context of the era, the history of the movement, and the term "mettre à l'index". You cannot use "blacklist", "ban", "dismiss" or "suppress" since none of these happened in this case.
No need for any note. I am not changing the source text at all (I never do), but translating it faithfully into correct English. And no, I never said or inferred that the ST is badly written at all on any of these questions. I do think you shouldn’t get hung up on ONE possible meaning of a term. The terms I've offered are close to the meaning you cite in the context
Constructivist architecture was NEVER officially banned, blacklisted or dismissed at all. There was a reaction against it as it was considered to be TOO modern and ugly. Following a major competition in 1932 "Stalinist" (or Post Modern) architecture became more popular where more historical/classical elements were included i.e. "reconnaissance des acquis du passé" (a sort of picking and choosing elements of classical architecture). But there was a "Post-Constructivist" period as well with constructivist elements included so it wasn't an overnight changeover at all. "Neoclassical" or "Soviet realism" style then became popular up to the 1950s. But the Constuctivist movement continued to influence a lot of architecture and had a bit of a revival in the 1960s https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Constructivist_ar...