| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Researchers Say Many Languages Are Dying Thread poster: Dr. Jason Faulkner
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| Language and culture | Sep 19, 2007 |
I think we are talking about two different things here: language and culture.
A language dies when the people who speak it die or because they get "absorbed" by another people. The reason why the people speaking the language die has nothing to do with the language they speak. In the case they are "absorbed", they are forced to abandon their language but of course they will find another language in order to communicate. And there is always the possibility, in principle, if they are allowed,... See more I think we are talking about two different things here: language and culture.
A language dies when the people who speak it die or because they get "absorbed" by another people. The reason why the people speaking the language die has nothing to do with the language they speak. In the case they are "absorbed", they are forced to abandon their language but of course they will find another language in order to communicate. And there is always the possibility, in principle, if they are allowed, to continue their culture in this other language.
Languages in places which are somehow prosperous evolve. And this is good and natural. When a language per se dies, the people who should be worried are the linguists. For example, there is a language in South America in which there are no numbers: it seems that people do not have the notion of numbers. If this languages dies, the mystery won't be resolved: a sad thing linguistically. When the culture dies, this is a generally sad thing.
Culture comprises many things: songs, dances, architecture etc. Cultures die even in the same community without change in the language because they are obsolete, or for several other reasons. Some legends, for example, sound a bit silly nowadays and they are abandoned and forgotten. So, in the example with the flower, the villagers would give a new name to the flower, if it was important to them: language evolution. If its heeling properties were known only to the old lady, then the secret would die with her: a culture dies.
There are cases in which a language dies and a culture survives and vica versa.
I think we are talking about cultures dying here and languages dying together with them because people cannot survive. This is sad, to say the least. But they are distinct things.
We would all like to communicate with people from all over the world. There could be a lingua franca for that. And as I said, one language is perhaps an impossible and even a dangerous for the species thing.
E. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Language. The best idea we've had since coming down from the trees! | Sep 19, 2007 |
As a physician, I'm a little hesitant to use the word "die" when referring to a language. It would seem that all languages are ultimately absorbed into the next language to a certain degree. When we try to give a language qualities we assign to living beings, we get emotional instead of looking at the subject from an objective point of view.
In the end, a hunter-gatherer tribe in New Guinea does not preserve its language out of some scholarly pursuit, but out of utility. Within... See more As a physician, I'm a little hesitant to use the word "die" when referring to a language. It would seem that all languages are ultimately absorbed into the next language to a certain degree. When we try to give a language qualities we assign to living beings, we get emotional instead of looking at the subject from an objective point of view.
In the end, a hunter-gatherer tribe in New Guinea does not preserve its language out of some scholarly pursuit, but out of utility. Within their group and way of life, their language is useful. Once outside influences come in, or population moves out, the most useful system of communication will prevail, though remnants of the old language will no doubt remain. The really useful stuff can even force it's way into dominant languages all over the world (see "xocolātl").
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in our modern age doesn't the survival of a language boil down to writing? The impression I got from the article was that the languages that were disappearing were primarily languages without a system of writing. The way everything is indexed, catalogued, and stored around the world these days, it would seem that there will always be someone left who understands a written language for either scholarly or personal pursuits. They'll still be speaking Klingon 500 years from now!
Which then leads to the conclusion that many of you were alluding to, but were tip-toeing around out of a sense of political correctness. What INFORMATION is really lost from a language that has no written system of preservation? I emphasize INFORMATION because there will certainly be stories and words that are lost to the ether for all time. However, with no written system, the stories can be assumed to have drifted very far from their original, ancient roots. No matter how strict (or better yet, dogmatic) an oral tradition may be, there will ultimately be considerable drift in the data. Languages are in a constant state of change. If a language is not written down, we really only know what the latest generation knows.
This is not meant in any way to belittle those of our brothers, sisters and cousins who have managed to make it this far down the road of human existence with us. Eventually, everything about us, be it our language, our technology, and even our genes will be replaced by new and improved models. My current existence is the direct result of many lines of conquered peoples (West Africans, Celts and Native North Americans), so my ancestors surely have spoken literally thousands of languages, with English creeping in in the last few centuries. In the end, I doubt very much useful information is really being lost. A group may have learned that a given flower is really good for pneumonia, but so is amoxicillin, and they don't have a word for that or the syringe used to inject it. Any truly valuable information will be carried into the next language by the transitional generation . . . regardless of what they call it.
An interesting conversation, to say the least.
SaludoZ! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | 6,600,000,000 minds all working at the same time! | Sep 19, 2007 |
Evangelia Mouma wrote:
A language dies when the people who speak it die or because they get "absorbed" by another people. The reason why the people speaking the language die has nothing to do with the language they speak. In the case they are "absorbed", they are forced to abandon their language but of course they will find another language in order to communicate. And there is always the possibility, in principle, if they are allowed, to continue their culture in this other language.
E.
Looks like we were thinking the same thing at the same time from opposite sides of the planet, though Evangelia said it more elegantly than I ever could.
| | | | Fabio Descalzi 
Urugvaj
Local time: 08:41
Member (2004)
German to Spanish
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| Great that you note this, Eva | Sep 19, 2007 |
Evangelia Mouma wrote:
Culture comprises many things: songs, dances, architecture etc. Cultures die even in the same community without change in the language because they are obsolete, or for several other reasons. Some legends, for example, sound a bit silly nowadays and they are abandoned and forgotten. So, in the example with the flower, the villagers would give a new name to the flower, if it was important to them: language evolution. If its heeling properties were known only to the old lady, then the secret would die with her: a culture dies.
Now that you mention "legends", it is important to note: many times, legends actually "disguise" empirical truths, discovered many generations ago by "tribes" - be it by the tribe witch, or even a scientist from ancient times.
Take the case of Mayans and their city-states in what we could name "the Greece of Central America": their former priests-and-scientists some 1000 years ago made so many important discoveries in astronomy, agriculture, medicine, etc.; many descendants from those Mayans are nowadays keeping traditions, customs, empirical knowledge, etc. that derive from those ages and are "unconsciously" kept (and often ignored or denied by "modern" men).
So, if we think about remote natives in Siberia, the Amazon forest, etc... the story of Yaya and the flower acquires even more significance. Maybe Yaya was telling "tales about the flower", and actually she had THE knowledge about that flower! Correspondingly: a Siberian "tribe" knows the frozen soil and its incidence in forests much better than modern scientists (and keep secrets about it only known in their own language), the Amazon "Indians" know about this and that poison and its antidote, etc...
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| The Gaelic revival | Sep 19, 2007 |
When I read about people who are the last native speakers in their language, it makes me sad. But then I wonder what happened - did they not have children? Did they emigrate? So many factors...
It may surprise some of you to know that Irish Gaelic is enjoying a certain revival these days Yes, there are LOADS of discrepancies in the system, for example: setting up Gaelic-language schools but the vast majority of textbo... See more When I read about people who are the last native speakers in their language, it makes me sad. But then I wonder what happened - did they not have children? Did they emigrate? So many factors...
It may surprise some of you to know that Irish Gaelic is enjoying a certain revival these days Yes, there are LOADS of discrepancies in the system, for example: setting up Gaelic-language schools but the vast majority of textbooks are only available in English, no Irish language roadmaps for the Gaeltacht areas and other minor irritants.
However, Gaelic-language schools (Gaelscoil) are spreading all over the country. This has the knock-on effect where parents who want to send their child to a Gaelscoil feel they'd better brush up on their Irish in order to make a good impression with the school and to follow the kids' homework. So now we have lots of adult Irish classes at all sorts of levels. We even have foundation Irish classes in the main cities for non-Irish nationals whose children are in the Irish education system.
There is still a very long way to go.
Right now, there are more native Polish speakers in Ireland than native Gaelic speakers. The Government launched a 20 year strategy last year to make Ireland functionally bilingual in Irish and English. We'll see how that goes... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Henry Hinds
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 05:41
English to Spanish
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Sjećanje na
Human beings evolve, cultures evolve and languages evolve, and in our times the pace of evolution increases day by day.
Certain things are lost and others gained. We speak of languages that are dying. Have we thought of new languages that are being born?
Think of this: There are no two persons on earth who speak the same language.
So how many new ones are being born?
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... to read what Orla wrote. When I was in Wales I tried to learn some Welsh and I was glad to see that people were very happy to hear me speak it. So, really, when people want and can, their language survives. I also know that the company I work for, Mango Languages, is planning to launch Irish too.
But, back to what I was saying, isn't there an Irish culture in English? Aren't there Irish legends told in English?
And back to what you were saying, Jason - thank you fo... See more ... to read what Orla wrote. When I was in Wales I tried to learn some Welsh and I was glad to see that people were very happy to hear me speak it. So, really, when people want and can, their language survives. I also know that the company I work for, Mango Languages, is planning to launch Irish too.
But, back to what I was saying, isn't there an Irish culture in English? Aren't there Irish legends told in English?
And back to what you were saying, Jason - thank you for your kind words - sometimes something gets useful later on: you realize that you need it when you no longer have it. "Important" is quite relevant.
Languages can die. And languages have qualities we attribute to human beings because they are hard-wired in our brains and they evolve as our brains evolve. Sometimes, if they are not transferred to a next generation, if the next generation has learnt another language, they die. But, on the other hand, take Ancient Greek and Latin. They are called "dead" languages but I believe they are half-dead, semi-conscious.:) Because they have evolved into Modern Greek and the Romance languages.
And it would be great if scientists could collaborate with "tribes" and get all the knowledge they have and apply it to medicine etc. Because they have the means to know if the healing properties of something is not a coincidence.
But this is a very long talk. Thank you all for bringing it up.
Eva. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Hiberno English | Sep 20, 2007 |
Evangelia Mouma wrote:
But, back to what I was saying, isn't there an Irish culture in English? Aren't there Irish legends told in English?
Yes, I think you're referring to Hiberno-English there http://www.eu2004.ie/templates/standard.asp?sNavlocator=3,148,225
Legends and fairytales were translated from Irish to English, but at least they have survived.
Even though the majority of Irish people are not fluent in Gaelic, they would be very sad to see the language die, as it is a big part of our ancient history and culture.
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| language and the concept of identity | Sep 20, 2007 |
I subscribe what Jørgen and Liliana have said.
I agree with others that language and culture are not the same, and that a culture can survive without a language. There are many examples around. However, in my opinion language makes up for a big part of "identity". The loss of a language may not come with an immediate loss of culture (or history, or character, or the other elements that have been brought up in this discussion), but it is a loss of identity.
Do not think... See more I subscribe what Jørgen and Liliana have said.
I agree with others that language and culture are not the same, and that a culture can survive without a language. There are many examples around. However, in my opinion language makes up for a big part of "identity". The loss of a language may not come with an immediate loss of culture (or history, or character, or the other elements that have been brought up in this discussion), but it is a loss of identity.
Do not think I do not agree that a lingua franca would be fine. But we could direct our efforts to have a fully bilingual world, and speak the lingua franca to each other without need to lose anyone's own language.
I am happy to read what Orla says. A similar thing is happening in the Basque country. Let's hope we can add more cases in the future. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It is beyond logic, but too much gets lost in translation... | Sep 21, 2007 |
I had the privilege of learning Danish more or less together with my son. It is every child's birthright to learn at least one language like that, exploring it, being loved and played with through it as my husband and mother in law did, and as I did to the best of my ability. I learned nursery rhymes and word-games at least as eagerly as the baby, as well as reviving my own heritage of English ones!
Most small children have no problems with learning two languages, as long as they a... See more I had the privilege of learning Danish more or less together with my son. It is every child's birthright to learn at least one language like that, exploring it, being loved and played with through it as my husband and mother in law did, and as I did to the best of my ability. I learned nursery rhymes and word-games at least as eagerly as the baby, as well as reviving my own heritage of English ones!
Most small children have no problems with learning two languages, as long as they are allowed to learn them naturally. My son actually spoke far more Danish than English when he was little, but he understood both more or less equally.
At the same time, as an adult, I could explore the language of Hans Christian Andersen, Kierkegaard and Niels Bohr, Grundtvig and Holberg and all the others, famous and anonymous...
I discovered how much influence the Vikings had on English a thousand years ago. English place names and expressions suddenly acquired vivid new meanings. My Latin teacher was right - you don't learn your own language properly until you learn another.
If you've read Andersen's fairy tales in the original version, Disney is simply insipid. Mercifully, there are far better translations, but nothing that quite captures the essence of Andersen himself.
Denmark, on a world scale, is only a small population, maybe half the size of Greater London. But it has everything from history and folklore to philosophers and poets, a modern monarchy, scientists, technology and industries that lead the world in their fields. It would be a disaster if their language disappeared. The pumps and wind turbines, Lego bricks and bacon will go on, but there is a whole mindset that is uniquely Danish, and the same applies to any language.
It is formed by the land and the history. English, German Swedish and Norwegian are all related to Danish. And all completely different in different ways.
I agree that no one should be forced to learn a language that is doomed to disappear. I did not really get on with my Latin teacher, and four years of Latin did not teach me the language, although I did learn a lot of useful things about English.
In parallel with Latin I was learning French, and went on to German in the Sixth form, with very different educational methods and very different teachers. I got quite fluent and went on to acquire a reasonable command of the languages.
If schools adopted the threatened languages and taught them to children while they are still receptive, I believe they would benefit all their lives, and the languages would stay alive.
Ideally, every child should learn a world language and a minority language at the very least.
Those of us who speak the widespread languages as natives have a duty to learn and respect the 'smaller' languages. But we benefit enormously ourselves too. The language we use forms the way we think, and a new language adds an extra dimension, casting light onto the darker corners and setting off new creative impulses.
This process is impossible to describe in words and general terms. Once you have experienced it, there is no going back.
Thanks for letting me share your language, Jørgen...
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| | | | John Rawlins
Španija
Local time: 13:41
Spanish to English
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| Reviving dying languages by force | Sep 23, 2007 |
My earlier comment about fewer languages being better has attracted some criticism.
I made the point that I cannot see the value in obliging children to learn minority languages, and that the inevitability of fewer languages is not condemned by everybody.
Europe has dozens of languages that for historical reasons (usually military and economic) failed to make it to the European linguistic premier league. I am thinking of languages such as: Gaelic; Catalan; Cornish; Bret... See more My earlier comment about fewer languages being better has attracted some criticism.
I made the point that I cannot see the value in obliging children to learn minority languages, and that the inevitability of fewer languages is not condemned by everybody.
Europe has dozens of languages that for historical reasons (usually military and economic) failed to make it to the European linguistic premier league. I am thinking of languages such as: Gaelic; Catalan; Cornish; Breton; Yiddish; Frisian; Lombard; and so on.
I accept that failing to have become a 'big' language was a tragedy for many of the speakers. And I am full of admiration for individuals who choose to learn and speak these languages.
But should these languages be imposed on the individuals now living in regions where they were once widely spoken?
Yes, say many nationalist leaders throughout Europe. They argue that these languages must be revived, by whatever means, as a step towards local pride, autonomy, and independence.
I say no. I prefer leaving Europe's borders just as they are, and letting everyone speak whatever language they wish to speak. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Alan R King
Local time: 13:41
Basque to English
+ ...
Sjećanje na | Dear John... | Sep 24, 2007 |
(1) You will agree, I hope, that being a swimmer is not the same thing as being an Olympic swimmer, and that for the vast majority of swimmers, just being a swimmer is quite sufficient. Well, what is all this about a "premier league" for languages, then? For the vast majority of languages and of language speakers, there is no need or desire to enter into any such "premier league"; to go on existing (for languages) and to go on being able to speak one's own language (for speakers) is quite enough... See more (1) You will agree, I hope, that being a swimmer is not the same thing as being an Olympic swimmer, and that for the vast majority of swimmers, just being a swimmer is quite sufficient. Well, what is all this about a "premier league" for languages, then? For the vast majority of languages and of language speakers, there is no need or desire to enter into any such "premier league"; to go on existing (for languages) and to go on being able to speak one's own language (for speakers) is quite enough. Obviously, whatever you may mean by a "premier league", it is a tautology to say that most languages "failed to make it" (if indeed they had ever tried) into your premier league because if all languages had, it wouldn't be a premier league, would it? But apart from that logical fudge, I think you really need to reexamine what sort of thinking underlies your blithe assumption that "big (or premier league membership, if you insist) is good, small is bad (and small must die????)".
(2) Why does it worry you that "these [small] languages be imposed on the individuals now living in regions where they were once widely spoken", whereas it apparently doesn't bother you in the least that your beloved "premier league" languages not only be imposed on everybody, but that this be enforced, if necessary, at the cost of the very survival of smaller languages?
(3) "Letting everyone speak whatever language they wish to speak", which is what you claim you prefer, is precisely the aim of speakers of smaller languages who wish to speak and go on speaking their languages and which is what you propose to deny them the ability to do by only recognising the rights of linguistic majorities (and state-supported language groups, of course).
(4) The point you have failed to comprehend, and one of fundamental importance for the whole language diversity debate, is that the rights (including language rights) of individuals belonging to smaller collectives (e.g. language communities) are every bit as valid, legitimate and deserving of protection as the rights of individuals belonging to larger groups. Most people do not use wheelchairs, yet those who do have THE SAME RIGHT to be able to cross the road as those who do not. And I have the same right to speak my language, even if it is only spoken by a thousand people, as you have to speak yours, even if spoken by a thousand million. Now if the survival of my language is threatened (possibly by the expansion or supremacist self-imposition of your language) and the survival of yours is not, then I, as a speaker of my language and a member of my language community, am entitled to perceive a (legitimate) need to do what I can to defend (a) my language, (b) my language community and (c) my right to (continue to) speak my language against that threat. You do not have any such comparable need because of your language's "premier league" status, but your failure to perceive, comprehend or sympathise with my need as a minority or endangered language speaker does not constitute a good argument against my claim to have that need and my determination to keep my language alive by legitimate means.
(5)
for historical reasons (usually military and economic)
Might (whether military or economic) does not make right. Are you claiming that it does? And even if you do, what is so shocking, in that case, about a minority community taking measures to defend its own interests?
Alan ▲ Collapse
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Fabio Descalzi
Urugvaj
Local time: 08:41
Member (2004)
German to Spanish
+ ...
| Premier leagues happen to be very dynamic! | Sep 24, 2007 |
Alan R King wrote:
... whatever you may mean by a "premier league", it is a tautology to say that most languages "failed to make it" (if indeed they had ever tried) into your premier league because if all languages had, it wouldn't be a premier league, would it?
Take the case of Manchu.
Once upon a time, a very important language in a great country like China.
Not wanting to be so specific, and telling it plainly: it was the language of the top guys. It was compulsory to learn it for every person who wanted to be there at the top, or sort of.
And a VERY different language compared to Chinese, too: written with an alphabet and without tonal characteristics in its pronunciation, to name just two obvious things.
These days, Manchu is almost a dead language.
BUT...
As all the Chinese classics are translated into Manchu, the study of this language is as interesting as the study of Latin concerning European history, culture, religion and science. It even makes easier to read the great Chinese works!
John Rawlins wrote:
for historical reasons (usually military and economic)
The Manchus imposed the learning of their language for power reasons, too. Only that... they did NOT forbid Chinese, but quite on the contrary: regarded it as a precious treasure, as part of an even more precious culture. So they decided to preserve and allow it. They just made compulsory to learn Manchu, in order to show "who was the boss".
A case study for linguistic policies...?
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