| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | What do you think of pdfs? Thread poster: David Eunice
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Hello fellow workers at the coal face of meaning.
I would like to hear what you think about ubiquitous pdfs.
It would be great if you could answer the four simple questions below.
(Where relevant, the ideal would be to delete the non-applicable lines,
but you could also answer, e.g. 1e -- convert using ______. 2a, 2c, 3-5, 4. Spanish --> Thai)
If you say more, I'm listening.... See more Hello fellow workers at the coal face of meaning.
I would like to hear what you think about ubiquitous pdfs.
It would be great if you could answer the four simple questions below.
(Where relevant, the ideal would be to delete the non-applicable lines,
but you could also answer, e.g. 1e -- convert using ______. 2a, 2c, 3-5, 4. Spanish --> Thai)
If you say more, I'm listening.
Q1. How do you deal with double-page pdfs with small fonts?
1a -- Print out hard copy? (Is it easily legible?)
1b -- Zoom the pdf in an on-screen window and navigate as necessary?
1c -- Copy and paste text (if possible) into an MS-Word file?
1d -- Snapshot sections and paste them into MS-Word as graphics?
1e -- Other (please specify)
Q2. Would you prefer that the text was supplied in some other form?
2a -- Yes
2b -- No
State preference
2c -- Hard copy
2d -- Plain text file
2e -- MS-Word file
2f -- Other (please specify)
Q3. Score you opinion of dealing with typical double-page pdfs
on scale of one to ten:
one being 'they are vile and I hate them', ten being no 'they are no problem at all'.
Q4. What source language(s) do you deal with?
Background
My source language is always Japanese, so this may be a
script-related problem.
Recently I've been thinking a lot about how
I am expected to more work under worse conditions
for the same money.
When I started translating, I was sent marked up
and hard copy. When necessary, all translatable
items were numbered. All I had to do was translate.
These days I often get double-page pdfs.
A typical Japanese pdf has about five columns per A4
page. These have call-outs, photo captions, numerous headers,
and double column rubrics. Tourist information pamphlets are even
more complex. Saving as text just creates a jumble.
At 100%, double-page pdfs are just about legible on my 24-inch monitor,
but are more comfortable when zoomed. That means that
I have to navigate around the pdf, overlain with other windows,
with the mouse. This especially true for tiny green text captions
under photos and labels on figures.I always have incipient repetitive
strain injury (trigger finger) in my mouse finger.
The navigation procedures also increase eye strain. ▲ Collapse
| | | | jaymin
Canada
Local time: 15:27
German to Korean
+ ...
| it IS complicated.. | Feb 12, 2010 |
PDF in Korean and Japanese is complicated. Sometimes the conversion doesn't work properly with graphs, diagrams, fonts, etc.
Adobe should work harder. Have you tried Adobe 9? I am not sure how much they improved this time?
| | | | pcovs
Denmark
Local time: 21:27
English to Danish
| Insist on getting the original documents | Feb 12, 2010 |
It is often a problem also with latin characters, and many of us use a variety of pdf converters more or less succesfully.
Ideally, we make the client provide the original, editable files for us to work in, and otherwise some of us would put a surcharge on handling pdf files, because of the extra work involved, so perhaps this would be a solution?
And, I personally hate pdf files! ;o)
| | | | Erik Freitag 
Germany
Local time: 21:27
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
Q1. How do you deal with double-page pdfs with small fonts?
1e -- Other (please specify)
I don't accept them / I charge a hefty extra fee.
Q2. Would you prefer that the text was supplied in some other form?
2a -- Yes
2e -- MS-Word file
2f -- Other (please specify): TTX
Q3... See more Q1. How do you deal with double-page pdfs with small fonts?
1e -- Other (please specify)
I don't accept them / I charge a hefty extra fee.
Q2. Would you prefer that the text was supplied in some other form?
2a -- Yes
2e -- MS-Word file
2f -- Other (please specify): TTX
Q3. Score you opinion of dealing with typical double-page pdfs
on scale of one to ten:
one being 'they are vile and I hate them', ten being no 'they are no problem at all'.
10 - no problem at all (to me).
Q4. What source language(s) do you deal with?
NL-DE
EN-DE
Best regards,
Erik ▲ Collapse
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John Fossey
Canada
Local time: 15:27
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
| Not really a problem | Feb 12, 2010 |
Q1 - 1e - Convert to .doc with (good) OCR software. Sometimes needs some retyping, but its not that big a job.
Q2 - 2a (Yes), 2e (MS Word)
Q3 - 10 (Not a problem)
Q4 - FR>EN
| | | | | What do you think of pdfs? | Feb 12, 2010 |
David Eunice wrote: Hello fellow workers at the coal face of meaning. I would like to hear what you think about ubiquitous pdfs.
Never understood how this horrendous nightmare of file format has been accepted as an ISO standard... Here is how I deal with Pretty Depressive Files...
[Editado a las 2010-02-12 20:17 GMT]
| | | | Shannon Morales
United States
Local time: 14:27
Member (2005)
Japanese to English
+ ...
| Also Japanese source | Feb 12, 2010 |
Q1 -- A combination of 1a and 1d. I snapshot manageable-sized segments of the page and print them out. Depending on the file, that can be 2 per page or up to 10 per page.
Q2 -- 2a Definitely yes!
2e or 2f -- many times they're originally from Power Point, and it's usually better for both the translator and the client if I can work directly in the PPT file.
Q3 -- 7
My dislike of them has been tempered over time.
Q4 -- Japanese<... See more Q1 -- A combination of 1a and 1d. I snapshot manageable-sized segments of the page and print them out. Depending on the file, that can be 2 per page or up to 10 per page.
Q2 -- 2a Definitely yes!
2e or 2f -- many times they're originally from Power Point, and it's usually better for both the translator and the client if I can work directly in the PPT file.
Q3 -- 7
My dislike of them has been tempered over time.
Q4 -- Japanese
As you can imagine, not being able to copy and paste unfamiliar terms into an online dictionary is my biggest beef with PDFs. It takes extra time to type the terms in myself and get to the right kanji, and then there are those oddball kanjis that I don't know how to pronounce, which means I have to take the added step of counting the strokes and looking it up in a kanji dictionary. So it definitely requires more time than a Word file would.
That said, I do sometimes prefer a PDF file to a Power Point one, when it means I don't have to spend even MORE extra time trying to squeeze typically longer English text into the same tight little text boxes that the original Japanese was in. Make those boxes vertical and I'd vote for PDF (or at least for submitting a Word file) almost every time!
By the way, I recently started using SDL Trados Studio 2009, which purportedly is able to read PDF files. But the two times that I have attempted it thus far, it didn't work. I assume it has to do with how linear the text is (i.e., fewer graphics and images, etc.), but I do still wonder how well it'll be able to read Japanese. ▲ Collapse
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| What I think | Feb 12, 2010 |
David Eunice wrote:
What do you think of pdfs?
I think pdf is the worst conceivable format for text files and whoever uses it for files to be translated or for glossaries should be hanged, drawn and quartered.
| | | | David Eunice
Japan
Local time: 04:27
Japanese to English
TOPIC STARTER | I conclude, source-text pdfs are generally disliked... | Feb 13, 2010 |
Sergei Leshchinsky wrote: click
Pablo Bouvier wrote: click
Thank you guys for the practical advice.
And others also responded with their scores and opinions.
My original post was motivated because a long-term agent
I deal with told me that no-one else complains...
Perhaps the others don't complain because they have excellent
conversion software? 
With confirmation that both Asian scripts and Roman alphabets
are problematic, your responses have shown me that I am
not alone. I am also glad to find others who are not willing to
treated like a doormat.
efreitag wrote:
charge a hefty extra fee
Nice work if you can get it! In the Japanese market, most agents
will just find someone more pliable.
PCovs suggested
Insist on getting the original documents
By the time that happens the deadline will be past.
You'd be surprised at how some buyers here think that they
are doing you a favour by providing any work at all.
Jaymin asked about
Acrobat 9
I have 9 Pro. Save as is not well implemented.
The builtin OCR also fails really easily. It is totally hopeless
if there is , as is so often the case, a pictorial background.
John Fossey suggested
Convert to .doc with (good) OCR software
Thanks for your full response John
OCR of Japanese is pretty iffy. Generally two or three of
a hundred characters will be blacked (unrecognizable) and
half a dozen are likely to be misrecognized.
When I OCR I still need to see the accursed pdf file. More eyework!
[Edited at 2010-02-13 03:26 GMT]
| | | | David Eunice
Japan
Local time: 04:27
Japanese to English
TOPIC STARTER | Some Japanese-specific points | Feb 13, 2010 |
Shannon, thanks for your full response.
Shannon Morales wrote:
those oddball kanjis that I don't know how to pronounce, which means I have to take the added step of counting the strokes and looking it up in a kanji dictionary.
When I get those, or semilegibles, I turn to edict online and its
radical lookup table.
Shannon Morales added:
do sometimes prefer a PDF file to a Power Point one, when it means I don't have to spend even MORE extra time trying to squeeze typically longer English text into the same tight little text boxes that the original Japanese was in.
Powerpoint is another evil.
When I get them, I insist on extra payment for document production.
Sometimes for work delivered in MS-Word I have to paste in graphics
and overlay labels in English.
I charge both for handling the graphic (sizing and placement), more if it
needs to be cleaned up in graphics software, and for creating each textbox.
Shannon Morales added:
By the way, I recently started using SDL Trados Studio 2009, which purportedly is able to read PDF files. But the two times that I have attempted it thus far, it didn't work. I assume it has to do with how linear the text is (i.e., fewer graphics and images, etc.), but I do still wonder how well it'll be able to read Japanese.
That sounds like a thread you should start. Let me know if you do.
| | | | Brian Young
United States
Local time: 12:27
Danish to English
PDF is a great file format for some things, but certainly not as a source document for translation. I don't mind translating from a PDF because I just put it in one window, and open a word window below it for the translation. But if the original is heavily formatted I simply refuse to even attempt to duplicate the formatting. I tell my outsourcers that I do translation, not desk top publishing. Most of my outsourcers now use a program called Abel2docPro, and it does a good job of converting the ... See more PDF is a great file format for some things, but certainly not as a source document for translation. I don't mind translating from a PDF because I just put it in one window, and open a word window below it for the translation. But if the original is heavily formatted I simply refuse to even attempt to duplicate the formatting. I tell my outsourcers that I do translation, not desk top publishing. Most of my outsourcers now use a program called Abel2docPro, and it does a good job of converting the PDF to a reasonable word document, while retaining all of the fancy formatting. Then I just type over the text, one sentence at a time. It can be a strange experience, but I have had good results with this.
There are many documents that you will never get in a word processing format. I get a lot of things like marriage certificates, birth certificates, wills, etc., usually as pdf's, or even jpegs. You just have to explain that you can translate the words, but that you cannot replicate the document in a new language. At least not as part of a normal translation. If I knew how to do some of that I would certainly charge extra, and separately for doing it. But I don't know how, so I don't even try. ▲ Collapse
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David Russi
United States
Local time: 13:27
English to Spanish
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| Lazyness and fear | Feb 13, 2010 |
Translators should not even have to deal with this issue... PDF was conceived as a format to share files across platforms while protecting their content, but never as the source file, which it most certainly is not and what ofter it is treated as.
While I can accept that there instances in which the original source file was lost, and the PDF is all that is left, and times when it is not possible to hand translators files created in costly DTP programs, in all other instances, which ... See more Translators should not even have to deal with this issue... PDF was conceived as a format to share files across platforms while protecting their content, but never as the source file, which it most certainly is not and what ofter it is treated as.
While I can accept that there instances in which the original source file was lost, and the PDF is all that is left, and times when it is not possible to hand translators files created in costly DTP programs, in all other instances, which I daresay is probably the vast majority of cases, we get a PDF because the client is too lazy to look for the original document or does not understand that is not what we need, and agencies and translators do not stand up up for what they really need.
If translators and agencies STOPPED accepting them and going through costly and wasteful gymnastics to create a file that already exists (the source file that was used to make the PDF in the first place), or charging hefty surcharges for them, then we could get on with our business of translating without dealing with yet another technological distraction. ▲ Collapse
| | | | DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
| necessary evil | Feb 13, 2010 |
Certainly, Portable Document Format inherently is for viewing ONLY.
It's for final version only. And its versions, subtypes, embeddings, substandards etc are a nightmare for DTP.
It's certainly not for translators and editors. even its text layer is a mess.
When I don't feel like PDFing I ask double... Sometimes it doesn't help.
Cheers;)
| | | | | What do you think of pdfs? | Feb 13, 2010 |
David Russi wrote:
If translators and agencies STOPPED accepting them and going through costly and wasteful gymnastics to create a file that already exists (the source file that was used to make the PDF in the first place), or charging hefty surcharges for them, then we could get on with our business of translating without dealing with yet another technological distraction.
This would be true in a brave new world. However, I know an agency that each document they receive is converted first in a Pretty Depressive Format and then send to the translator. As I asked they why, they told me this was intended to prevent translators from modifying the original...
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