Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
les sciences des moeurs
English translation:
moral science
Added to glossary by
Chris Hall
Jan 18, 2010 13:06
14 yrs ago
French term
France
Excellence, Expertise & Experience
Native in: English (Variants: Irish, British, Wales / Welsh, UK, Scottish)
Works in: French to English, English
les sciences des moeurs
French to English
Social Sciences
Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc.
"Cette « médiation » par des « relais » avait déjà été théorisée par Durkheim au XIXe siècle. Dans son étude sur les sociétés et ***les sciences des mœurs***, il établissait la primauté des faits sociaux sur la psychologie individuelle. Pour lui, les objets ne tirent pas leur force d’eux-mêmes mais du groupe dont ils sont le symbole."
I'm tempted to use "mores" here, given that "sociétés" immediately precedes it, to avoid repetition.
I'm tempted to use "mores" here, given that "sociétés" immediately precedes it, to avoid repetition.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +4 | moral science |
Chris Hall
|
| 4 +5 | the science of morality |
Evans (X)
|
| 4 +1 | behavio(u)ral sciences |
Sébastien GUITTENY
|
| 3 +1 | social science |
Sandra Petch
|
| 4 | mores |
rkillings
|
| 2 +1 | the science of morals |
Jonathan MacKerron
|
| 3 | moral science |
Emma McKenzie
|
| 4 -1 | either or |
Bourth (X)
|
Change log
Jan 25, 2010 12:20: Chris Hall Created KOG entry
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:
Non-PRO (2): Chris Hall, Rob Grayson
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Proposed translations
+4
5 mins
Chris Hall
Native in English
219 témoignages et ils ne cessent pas...
Native in: English (Variants: British, UK)
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
4
Selected
moral science
Source: http://www.csuchico.edu/~curbanowicz/syllabi/SYL_296-F99.htm...
The facts which disconcert us surely obey laws, but what are they? We cannot guess. In one sense, social reality presents more difficulties to scientific research than does the physical world, because, even supposing that static laws are known, the state of society at any given moment is never intelligible except through the prior evolution of which it is the present outcome; and how rare are the cases where the historical knowledge of this past is so complete and so certain that nothing indispensable is missing! [stress added]" Lucien Lévy-Bruhl [1857-1939], 1903, La Morale et les **sciences des moeurs** [Ethics and **Moral Science**], in Lucien Lévy-Bruhl (1972) by Jean Cazeneuve, pages 24-25.
The facts which disconcert us surely obey laws, but what are they? We cannot guess. In one sense, social reality presents more difficulties to scientific research than does the physical world, because, even supposing that static laws are known, the state of society at any given moment is never intelligible except through the prior evolution of which it is the present outcome; and how rare are the cases where the historical knowledge of this past is so complete and so certain that nothing indispensable is missing! [stress added]" Lucien Lévy-Bruhl [1857-1939], 1903, La Morale et les **sciences des moeurs** [Ethics and **Moral Science**], in Lucien Lévy-Bruhl (1972) by Jean Cazeneuve, pages 24-25.
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks to all for your contributions to the debate. "
+1
5 mins
Sébastien GUITTENY
France
France
Native in French
France
Tempus fugit sic carpe diem
Native in: French
Works in: French to English, English to French
behavio(u)ral sciences
Les sciences comportementales (du comportement)
Reference:
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Lorna Coing
1 min
|
| disagree |
Chris Hall
: I believe that there is a marked difference between "behavioural science(s)" and "moral science(s)".
57 mins
|
| agree |
Yolanda Broad
: "moeurs" are, indeed, behavior. Especially in Durkheim's writings.
20 days
|
+1
5 mins
Jonathan MacKerron
Native in English
Retired as of Jan 2019!
Native in: English
Works in: German to English, French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
6
the science of morals
certainly gets its share of credible googles
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 mins (2010-01-18 13:18:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
"science of morality" gets lots of googles in association with Durkheim
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 mins (2010-01-18 13:21:51 GMT)
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endless google hits for
"science of morals" durkheim
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 mins (2010-01-18 13:18:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
"science of morality" gets lots of googles in association with Durkheim
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 mins (2010-01-18 13:21:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
endless google hits for
"science of morals" durkheim
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Constantinos Faridis (X)
5 mins
|
+1
11 mins
social science
Wasn't Durkheim an early sociologist?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 mins (2010-01-18 13:21:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.amazon.com/Durkheim-Makers-Modern-Social-Science/...
Emile Durkheim (Makers of Modern Social Science.)
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/ency/durkheim.htm
(1858-1917) French sociologist, and guiding figure in the influential French or "Durkheim school" of sociology.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 mins (2010-01-18 13:21:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.amazon.com/Durkheim-Makers-Modern-Social-Science/...
Emile Durkheim (Makers of Modern Social Science.)
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/ency/durkheim.htm
(1858-1917) French sociologist, and guiding figure in the influential French or "Durkheim school" of sociology.
+5
16 mins
the science of morality
This is how Durkheim's work is usually referred to
see for instance:
http://www.lotsofessays.com/viewpaper/1681714.html
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 mins (2010-01-18 13:25:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Here are a few more references, confirming the same expression:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2063011
http://durkheim.uchicago.edu/Biography.html
http://www.springerlink.com/content/wl0753332n3n4372/
see for instance:
http://www.lotsofessays.com/viewpaper/1681714.html
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 mins (2010-01-18 13:25:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Here are a few more references, confirming the same expression:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2063011
http://durkheim.uchicago.edu/Biography.html
http://www.springerlink.com/content/wl0753332n3n4372/
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Caroline Vignard (X)
: yes!
32 mins
|
|
thanks Caroline
|
|
| agree |
Chris Hall
33 mins
|
|
thanks Chris
|
|
| agree |
david young
9 hrs
|
|
thanks David
|
|
| agree |
Catherine Gilsenan
23 hrs
|
|
thanks Catherine
|
|
| agree |
John Detre
1 day 11 hrs
|
|
thanks John
|
43 mins
Emma McKenzie
Australia
Australia
Native in English
Australia
NAATI-certified translator
Native in: English (Variants: British, Australian) 
Works in: French to English, English
moral science
This seems to be a very specific concept and not one that can be given a broad umbrella equivalent such as behavioural or social science. Since it is Durkheim's own term, I would opt for "Moral science", but any of the other combinations would also be acceptable as more of a description of his thinking. I still prefer it over the "science of morals" (even though that gets more google hits), as I find it has the connotation of being a widely accepted fact - that teaching morals IS a science. I like the term "Durkheimian Moral Science" found in the paper entitled "Durkheim's Sociological Niche" accessible with the attached link.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Chris Hall
: Wouldn't it have been easier to have agreed with my answer rather than post an identical answer???
6 mins
|
|
Yes! Sorry, I'm only new to this. I realise now that you can still make a comment if you're agreeing to someone else's. I'll remember for next time!
|
-1
1 hr
either or
Thorough and wide-ranging examination of the SCIENCE OF MORALS, reviving and defending the tradition of a scientific approach to ethics.
www.questia.com/.../DURKHEIM-morals-and-modernity-by-wwatts...
DURKHEIM WRITES: What reconciles science and morality is the SCIENCE OF MORALITY, for at the same time as it teaches us toi respect moral reality it affords ...
www.lotsofessays.com/viewpaper/1681714.html
re-examination of his SCIENCE OF MORALS, an opportunity that never materialized. Although. DURKHEIM'S SCIENCE OF MORALITY is of utmost ... he also thinks that Durkheim's descriptive SCIENCE OF MORALS is greatly underestimated...
www.jstor.org/stable/2063011
www.jstor.org/stable/2063011
DURKHEIM arrived in Paris with a reputation as a powerful intellect pursuing an aggressively scientific approach to all problems (everything else was mysticism, dilettantism, and irrationalism). His "SCIENCE OF MORALITY" offended philosophers, his "science of religion" offended Catholics, and his appointment to the Sorbonne (which, in the wake of the Dreyfus Affair, appeared not above extra-academic considerations) offended those on the political Right.
http://durkheim.uchicago.edu/Biography.html
The point made, DURKHEIM wants to drive home another. Like any science and its pursuit of knowledge as such, the SCIENCE OF MORALS is "theoretical". ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=185728335X...
No commentators have defended DURKHEIM'S thesis of the SCIENCE OF MORALS as the ... stages on the beginnings of a moral science. Central to Durkheim's moral ...
doi.wiley.com/.../1520-6696(199610)32:4%3C484::AID-JHBS2300320406%3E3.0.CO;...
Educated in France and Germany, DURKHEIM taught social science at the Univ. of Bordeaux .... Thorough and wide-ranging examination of the SCIENCE OF MORALS, ...
www.questia.com › ... › Sociologists and Anthropologists
That said, I haven't Googled the existence of sciences des moeurs and sciences de la moralité to see if we are talking about two different kettles of herring.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2010-01-18 18:08:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
@Chris: If you think about it, and read my post and look where I'm SHOUTING, it just might sink in that I'm pointing out that not only are both said, but that both are said in relation to Durkheim. Nuance!
www.questia.com/.../DURKHEIM-morals-and-modernity-by-wwatts...
DURKHEIM WRITES: What reconciles science and morality is the SCIENCE OF MORALITY, for at the same time as it teaches us toi respect moral reality it affords ...
www.lotsofessays.com/viewpaper/1681714.html
re-examination of his SCIENCE OF MORALS, an opportunity that never materialized. Although. DURKHEIM'S SCIENCE OF MORALITY is of utmost ... he also thinks that Durkheim's descriptive SCIENCE OF MORALS is greatly underestimated...
www.jstor.org/stable/2063011
www.jstor.org/stable/2063011
DURKHEIM arrived in Paris with a reputation as a powerful intellect pursuing an aggressively scientific approach to all problems (everything else was mysticism, dilettantism, and irrationalism). His "SCIENCE OF MORALITY" offended philosophers, his "science of religion" offended Catholics, and his appointment to the Sorbonne (which, in the wake of the Dreyfus Affair, appeared not above extra-academic considerations) offended those on the political Right.
http://durkheim.uchicago.edu/Biography.html
The point made, DURKHEIM wants to drive home another. Like any science and its pursuit of knowledge as such, the SCIENCE OF MORALS is "theoretical". ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=185728335X...
No commentators have defended DURKHEIM'S thesis of the SCIENCE OF MORALS as the ... stages on the beginnings of a moral science. Central to Durkheim's moral ...
doi.wiley.com/.../1520-6696(199610)32:4%3C484::AID-JHBS2300320406%3E3.0.CO;...
Educated in France and Germany, DURKHEIM taught social science at the Univ. of Bordeaux .... Thorough and wide-ranging examination of the SCIENCE OF MORALS, ...
www.questia.com › ... › Sociologists and Anthropologists
That said, I haven't Googled the existence of sciences des moeurs and sciences de la moralité to see if we are talking about two different kettles of herring.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2010-01-18 18:08:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
@Chris: If you think about it, and read my post and look where I'm SHOUTING, it just might sink in that I'm pointing out that not only are both said, but that both are said in relation to Durkheim. Nuance!
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Chris Hall
: Both "science of morals" (55 mins before) and "science of morality" (44 mins before) had already been posted well in advance of your answer.
3 hrs
|
|
Disagree? But you just said that both my options are given elsewhere, and you agreed with one of them! More above.
|
5 hrs
mores
Just skip the 'sciences' bit: "in his study of societies and mores".
Other translators have been tempted to use the Latin term too; cf. ""When mores are sufficient, laws are unnecessary; when mores are insufficient, laws are unenforceable."
— Émile Durkheim"
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2010-01-18 18:22:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Unless you want to get into the evolutionary genetic basis of altruism, who in the Anglosphere ever calls moral philosophy a 'science', these days? And the term Moral Philosophy itself belongs to a century before Durkheim. Just skip it. Let 'study' carry the burden.
Other translators have been tempted to use the Latin term too; cf. ""When mores are sufficient, laws are unnecessary; when mores are insufficient, laws are unenforceable."
— Émile Durkheim"
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2010-01-18 18:22:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Unless you want to get into the evolutionary genetic basis of altruism, who in the Anglosphere ever calls moral philosophy a 'science', these days? And the term Moral Philosophy itself belongs to a century before Durkheim. Just skip it. Let 'study' carry the burden.
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