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s’était refermé sur une activité muséographique
se donnait la comédie
Aug 7, 2021 20:27
2 yrs ago
51 viewers *
French term

quel que fût le protocole impérial avec lequel le Reichsmarschall les attachait

French to English Art/Literary History From An Art History Book
Contexte:

Goering, homme de décision, fit connaître le jour suivant les conséquences pratiques à tirer de ses directives : les objets d’art que le Führer désire acquérir et ceux que lui-même a choisis avec l’intention de les acheter pour sa collection, devront être chargés immédiatement dans deux wagons de chemin de fer accrochés à son train spécial pour le retour à Berlin.
Le sort en était donc jeté – les œuvres d’art confisquées étaient purement et simplement enlevées – quel que fût le protocole impérial avec lequel le Reichsmarschall les attachait à son char.
J’ai souvent pensé que Goering se donnait la comédie et que tout ce processus avait été rêvé avant d’être réalisé. Il jouissait de se voir traînant après lui les trophées d’une victoire.

Goering carrying away stolen works of art from Jeu de Paume, as it they were spoils of war he should have been entitled to, as if he were a great conqueror or king.

Merci Beaucoup,

Barbara
Proposed translations (English)
4 +1 whichever type of Imperial triumph G awarded to himself to justify attaching them to his chariot
4 +2 irrespective of the imperial protocol with which the Reichsmarschall attached them to his cart
4 Regardless of the observance of the niceties b efitting his station
4 however great the imperious protocol with which the Reichsmarschall attached them
4 whatever imperial protocol R adopted to attach them
3 whatever imperious / regal / Protocol the Reichsmarschall would use to tether them to his cart
3 ...whichever imperial rule the Reichsmarshall used to get them into his convoy
References
to his cart

Discussion

ormiston Aug 9, 2021:
I actually meant To tone down the Roman Emperor /chariot metaphor, perhaps even saying 'to cart away the artworks'. Oh well, in for a Pfennig, in for a Pfund (!)
Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Aug 9, 2021:
Top-Heavy Delusions Of Grandeur . . . . . . seemed to permeate every part of G's psyche, based on everything the writer of the source text has said about him, up to this point. and seemed to compel every one of his attitudes and behaviors. So I don't think the idea should be conveyed more lightly.
ormiston Aug 8, 2021:
I had been toying with... "Whatever Emperor-style precedent he used (to make off with them" as a way of conveying the idea more lightly .
Emmanuella Aug 8, 2021:
Ergo ? Au second paragraphe, tout est dans le registre de l'ironie, je le maintiens.
A commencer par ' Alea jacta est/ le sort en est jeté ( César), protocole impérial et char. Une nuance à conserver selon moi. Les !ongues recherches sont inutiles à ce stade.
Du reste , par la suite il est indiqué que G. se ' donnait la comédie'.
Daryo Aug 8, 2021:
Agree with ph-b the 2 railway carts/wagons loaded with plundered art are being compared to a (Roman emperor’s) chariot loaded with the spoils of war in a procession known as "the triumph".

The "quel que fût le protocole impérial ..." (/whichever ...) part is a reference to the fact that there was 2 "grades/levels" of "triumph" a "lesser triumph" and a "full/normal triumph".

https://www.liquisearch.com/roman_triumph

https://www.liquisearch.com/roman_triumph/triumph_as_imperia...

https://www.liquisearch.com/roman_triumph/legal_requirements


A general might be granted a "lesser triumph", known as an Ovation. He entered the city on foot, minus his troops, in his magistrate's toga and wearing a wreath of Venus's myrtle. ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_triumph

IOW: whichever type of (Imperial Rome style) triumph Göring awarded to himself in order to justify it, ...
Conor McAuley Aug 8, 2021:
To polyglot45 The "legal provisions of the Reich"?

You have to be kidding.

Like the Nazi ethical code to be adhered to while killing tens of millions of people, often in cold blood, and trying to take over the world?

There's nothing at all "flowery and pompous" about "protocol", "impérial" and "attachait", and we have direct equivalents in English that are not false friends.
SafeTex Aug 8, 2021:
@ ph-b Thanks for explaining this. I've seen too many Hollywood war films where the gold and works of art are carted away on a tank🧐
ph-b (X) Aug 8, 2021:
Protocole impérial, char et trophée Le contexte montre clairement qu’il est fait référence ici au char que les empereurs romains utilisaient au cours de leur « triomphe » et sur lequel ou auquel étaient attachées leurs plus belles prises de guerre (hommes ou objets). Cf. plus loin dans le texte : traînant après lui les trophées d’une victoire. Il me semble qu’en anglais, on parle ici de (Roman emperor’s) chariot. Cf. https://www.google.com/search?q=Roman emperor’s chariot&oq=R... Les carts dénotent selon moi un statut ou un usage social bien inférieur. Tout ceci au sens figuré, évidemment.
SafeTex Aug 8, 2021:
@all (Char) Hello
I think that the works of art were first taken away attached to a tank (char) before being put to the train (in a carriage)
polyglot45 Aug 8, 2021:
@ Emmanuella Je sais mais cela ne change rien aux faits - l'auteur ne voulait pas répéter le mot "Reich" - quant à l'ironie - the jury's still out on that one
Emmanuella Aug 8, 2021:
@ polyglot45 - Impérial

https://www.google.com/search?q=hitler empire&oq=hitler empi...

Empire > Impérial ( used ironically IMHO).
Emmanuella Aug 8, 2021:
@ Barbara - I agree with the use of carriage as you suggested.
polyglot45 Aug 8, 2021:
To be clear The author uses "impérial" to avoid repeating "Reich" - the style is flowery and pompous in French which will sit ill literally translated into English. It simply means: whatever the legal provisions of the Reich that he used (as an excuse) to (justify his decsion to) annexe the goods
Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Aug 8, 2021:
Those would be very basic exams, indeed! I have an advanced degree in literary translation, which hardly ever lends itself to basic interpretation.
Conor McAuley Aug 8, 2021:
Good call I think.

While I'm here, I think that after a while in this game, the urge to prove that you're translating, actually working, and not staying literal, fades, after all something like 30% of English words come from French, so words like "protocole", "impérial" and "attachait", you just do them literally.

The thought process involved to come to the conclusion that you can indeed translate them literally does constitute work, folks!

And in translation exams it's points off for over-interpretation and additions, if I remember correctly.
Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Aug 7, 2021:
I now think I will use "carriage" instead of "chariot", since trains do have carriages, and pompous rulers ride around in carriages, esp. in parades in front of the nasses.
Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Aug 7, 2021:
Helen Would you then say, "regardless of the Reich's standard protocol, etc. . . .", in other words, that G might have been going against its rules for wartime loot, trying to keep as many valuable pieces/ the ones he liked for himself? Or do you think it just means the protocol that was put out there by the Reich, since its behavior was certainly lawless, in the conventional sense of the term. My feeling is that the word"standard" might not apply all that well in this case. The only reservation I have is that "Reich" doesn't appear in the source text in this instance, while it does in several other places in the source text. I'm sorry, but I don't understand German all that well anymore (your link).
Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Aug 7, 2021:
Cart?/Additional Context An imperious ruler or conqueror would not be traveling around in a mere cart, IMO.

I should have mentioned that when the liberators went into G's bedroom, they found all kinds of luxurious, sumptuous lounging clothes, befitting of a ruling warrior, who I don't think would be caught dead pulling a cart behind him, IMO.

After all, one has to keep up appearances, esp., as in this case, put forward a certain image!
Helen Shiner Aug 7, 2021:
Reich I think I would be tempted to translate ‘impérial’ as ‘Reich’, since that is the empire referred to.
Barbara Cochran, MFA (asker) Aug 7, 2021:
My Working Translation "...regardless of what would be standard imperial protocol, the Reichsmarschall went ahead and added them to his chariot," "chariot" referring to his special train, and to the conveyance of a triumphant warrior.

Other suggestions quite welcome!

Proposed translations

+1
21 hrs
French term (edited): quel que fût le protocole impérial avec lequel le Reichsmarschall les attachait à son char
Selected

whichever type of Imperial triumph G awarded to himself to justify attaching them to his chariot



whichever type of Imperial Rome style triumph the Reichsmarschall had awarded to himself in order to justify attaching them (the two wagons full of "trophies") to his Imperial chariot.


"le protocole impérial" is about the "protocol (= rules of the ceremony)" applicable to the ceremony of "the triumph" in Imperial Rome.


There is an element of mockery in "quel que fût le protocole impérial": only the Emperor could be awarded by the Senate the honour of a " triumph", anyone else would get a "lesser triumph".

Even the #2 is still not THE Emperor.

Implied: whether Göring awarded himself an Imperial Rome style triumph above his rank or not ...


regarding cart / carriage / chariot etc.

There are TWO " types" of them in this text.

Goering, homme de décision, fit connaître le jour suivant les conséquences pratiques à tirer de ses directives : les objets d’art que le Führer désire acquérir et ceux que lui-même a choisis avec l’intention de les acheter pour sa collection, devront être chargés immédiatement dans deux wagons de chemin de fer accrochés à son train spécial pour le retour à Berlin.

Le sort en était donc jeté – les œuvres d’art confisquées étaient purement et simplement enlevées – quel que fût le protocole impérial avec lequel le Reichsmarschall les attachait à son char.

J’ai souvent pensé que Goering se donnait la comédie et que tout ce processus avait été rêvé avant d’être réalisé. Il jouissait de se voir traînant après lui les trophées d’une victoire.


Of the plainly most literal type:

-- deux wagons de chemin de fer = railway carriages filled with the " trophies"

-- son train spécial = Göring's "personal train"

and then out of the blue you have

-- son char => there is no literal " char" of any kind in a train, so it MUST be a figure of style.

If you follow the sentence structure, the only fit is

"son char" = son train spécial

Then, if you take into account "traînant après lui les trophées d’une victoire" it's not much of a guess to see "son char" as "son char impérial" - a reference to the Emperor's chariot (here = son train spécial) heading an Imperial Rome style triumphal procession of war trophies.

The "trophies" might be in a cart, but in this mockery of Göring the wannabe "Roman Emperor" would be in his " chariot" . (son char = his Imperial chariot)

This author is plainly mocking Göring by comparing him to a pretend Roman Emperor, reminding the reader, as an added insult, that being only the #2 Göring is not even the equivalent of a "proper" Emperor.
Peer comment(s):
agree Johannes Gleim : Very good analysis! // Don't see either how to circumscribe.
2 hrs
Thanks!
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : I find "awarded [to] himself to justify..." cumbersome. The beauty of the source lies in how "imperial protocol" contrasts with what was done to the works. A more simple construction wld match the intention of the FR and be more elegant all round.
15 hrs
the difficulty with this whole text is that it's peppered with literary and historical references condensed in very few words, can't see how to do "keep it short" when translating it for a "general" audience.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
24 mins

whatever imperious / regal / Protocol the Reichsmarschall would use to tether them to his cart

The irony would perhaps be reflected by changing Imperial to imperious.

Tthe 'Imperial Protocol' suggests to me a Royal-type Protocol for the acceptance of gifts or legit. buying rather than theft of works of art.
Example sentence:

imperious in American English 1. overbearing, arrogant, domineering, etc.

Imperial Protocol Z-207 was a protocol of the Galactic Empire that was used by the Imperial Military.

Reference:

http://www.royal.uk/sites/default/files/media-packs/gifts_policy_2003.pdf

Peer comment(s):
neutral Andrew Bramhall : For tethering artworks to his cart he probably wouldn't have used a protocol, he'd more likely have used a rope instead.
1 hr
neutral Daryo : the kind of anything "Imperial" this author would have had in mind would almost certainly have been of "the Roman Empire" variety // no "Galactic Empire" to be seen anywhere in this story ...
20 hrs
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38 mins

Regardless of the observance of the niceties b efitting his station

Le sort en était donc jeté – les œuvres d’art confisquées étaient purement et simplement enlevées – quel que fût le protocole impérial avec lequel le Reichsmarschall les attachait à son char.

The die was cast- the confiscated artworks were purely and simply nicked and stashed onto his cart, regardless of the observance of any niceties befitting his status as Reichmarshall
Peer comment(s):
neutral Daryo : Göring being the #2, he was the one deciding about what are or not the "niceties" - if you are the one making the rules and changing them as it suits you, you can't "break" them //contradictio in adjecto
21 hrs
I think my suggestion captures the sense of irony conyeyed by the text, unlike any of the other answers;
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1 hr

...whichever imperial rule the Reichsmarshall used to get them into his convoy

suggestion
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+2
2 hrs
French term (edited): quel que fût le protocole impérial avec lequel le Reichsmarschall les attachait à son char

irrespective of the imperial protocol with which the Reichsmarschall attached them to his cart

I think you can go fairly literal with this one.

But the segment makes more sense with "à son char" included.


Third Reich = Third Empire => imperial

"The Third Reich,[i] meaning "Third Realm" or "***Third Empire***", alluded to the Nazis' conceit that Nazi Germany was the successor to the earlier Holy Roman Empire (800–1806) and German Empire (1871–1918)." (Wikipedia)


Reichsmarschall: (Army) Marshall in the Reich/Empire. I prefer the German term, as it is "transparent", i.e. easily understandable to an English speaker, so no need to translate.


char: Now this is where things get interesting. "Char" means tank, but it also means cart. ("Char" is car in Canadian French -- see "Tête à Claques", very funny, depending on your taste: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TmZe05uXxQ )

Compare with "charrette":
https://www.wordreference.com/fren/charrette

https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/char


Now, to belittle Goering, "char" is either wordplay by the author (tank/cart, untranslatable), or simply cart. I prefer cart over carriage, but I suppose carriage (more grandiose, faux-grandiose here) would do too, and we do use the term "train carriages", which of course fits in here.

Cart, in the context, is obviously the train.

For that matter, "protocol" is faux-officialese, making fun of Goering's shenanigans to get his hands on the loot. A protocol is a set procedure to get something done, far from what Goering is up to.


Now that the Führer is involved, we can of course recall that he was a failed artist in Vienna, so maybe "collecting" was a second-best option for him.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2021-08-07 22:43:48 GMT)
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In fact, "using which" probably reads better than "with which", which is a bit cumbersome.

Cart v. carriage is an interesting one. What is the author's intent: to belittle, (cart), or faux-grandiose (carriage), mocking his taste for fine things. But, in fine, it's still an outdated vehicle now that the car had been invented.

And you can go further, by using chariot, the ancient gods used chariots...

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Note added at 2 hrs (2021-08-07 22:50:06 GMT)
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To Barbara: it's a question of interpretation of authorial intent, but both work in their own ways, I think.

In both cases, the English text would be mocking Goering, just in different ways.
Note from asker:
As mentioned above, I prefer "chariot" over cart: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/french-english/char
Peer comment(s):
neutral Andrew Bramhall : Same comment to you as to Adrian. He would probably attached them with ropes rather than protocols.
13 mins
I think "attached" is meant metaphorically and not literally, in fairness. If you want to get into the detail, I think the works of art would be packaged/secured with something a little more sophisticated than ropes!
agree Tomasso : my language is spanish, but think the french word here is in refernece to caesars conquest of France, also the fr word Wagon, also in German, can be as others have said, recalls the idea of ancient wagon or cart, but today wagon is a train car also
5 hrs
Thanks Tomasso!
agree Emmanuella : carriage IMHO
10 hrs
Thanks Emmanuella!
neutral Daryo : not very likely // I think that "Third Reich = Third Empire => imperial" is a big fat red herring
20 hrs
The word "imperial" can of course refer to any empire, that's the advantage of translating fairly literally. (By the way it's "imperial" with a lower-case "I", and unless Goering is your BFF, you shouldn't refer to him as "G".)
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4 hrs

however great the imperious protocol with which the Reichsmarschall attached them

however great the imperious protocol with which the Reichsmarschall attached them [to his war-wagon]
Peer comment(s):
disagree Andrew Bramhall : It's just 'whatever',but the concept doesn't work anyway;
8 hrs
agree writeaway : Just to cancel out the disagree
12 hrs
neutral Daryo : no point putting another disagree just to cancel a pointless agree, but you did miss the point.
15 hrs
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1 day 13 hrs

whatever imperial protocol R adopted to attach them

In terms of meaning, it boils down to "however the works were attached".
Retaining "imperial protocol" matches the tone of the source text but basically fires "however" as a potential candidate. "Whatever" works well. The use of the conditional is not bad either as it brings in the elements of repetition.
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Reference comments

7 hrs
Reference:

to his cart

the suggested translation of cart, in m h o , it evoked immediately the book history of the Gauls, conquest by Julius Caesar.

about which one can see later? info?? Quote about site.... Latin placards proclaiming Caesar's victory. 3. The Spoils and Weapons of War Oxen pull a cart heaped with captured arms and armor. (Chrysler Museum, page under Maintenance)

Is there an allusion to Protocols, ancient rome, Etc. ancient protocols outline title, name of address, powers Related words over time, Caesar, Kaiser, Fuehre, Imperio, Reich, thousand year reign, Salute (latin health) Seigheil, Additional ref https://www.persee.fr/doc/crai_0065-0536_1905_num_49_2_71568

Es tut mir zehr leit, maybe i have too much time on my hands.

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Note added at 8 hrs (2021-08-08 04:27:45 GMT)
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Es gibt auch...Vier Tage später verließen diesmal die ersten Kisten mit geraubter Kunst das*** Jeu de Paume.*** Ob nun aus Klugheit, um den Schein zu wahren oder aus Vasallentreue gegenüber dem Lehnsherren, jedenfalls profitierte Hitler von diesem Transport. Fünfzehn Kisten waren für ihn bestimmt, fünf davon aus der Sammlung der jüdischen Bankiersfamilie Rothschild mit Gemälden von Frans Hals, Rembrandt, Goya u.a. Was Göring auswählte, wurde in*** Lastwagen gestapelt, am Pariser »Gare du Nord« in*** Eisenbahnwaggons*** umgeladen und nach Deutschland geschickt. Die Transporte gelangten über Füssen in die Schlösser Ludwigs II. von Bayern.

dieser kommt auf https://www.lootedart.com/news.php?r=QTB2DA156161

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Note added at 8 hrs (2021-08-08 04:44:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

the letters using search are probably here

https://www.lootedart.com/MN51H4593121

A letter from UTIKAL to Reichsleiter ROSENBERG of 18 February 1941 (ATTACHMENT 14) stresses GOERING’s desire to have such confiscated material as is “unworthy” to come to Germany used in this manner, and invites ROSENBERG’s attention to the initial proposals for exchange. It has been stated by both SCHOLZ and LOHSE that the series of exchanges could not have been initiated without ROSENBERG’s direct approval.
Example sentence:

Much like Caesar, Hitler heaped his cart with treasures after conquering Gaul.

Reference:

https://chrysler.emuseum.com/objects/4011/the-spoils-and-weapons-of-war-from-the-triumph-of-julius-cae;jsessionid=E61CFDE3EEE1169D7D7A311CC5

https://www.stcharlesprep.org/01_parents/oneil_j/Useful%20Links/AP%20Latin%20Assignments/HW/The%20Gallic%20Wars.pdf

Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree writeaway : It makes one wonder if the French isn't actually a translation of an English text
9 hrs
Thanks, agree the translation maybe 2nd a 3rd hand?
agree Conor McAuley : I don't read much German, but the rest is interesting.
9 hrs
Thank you has been quite interesting,
neutral Daryo : "son char" = the vehicle where is the Emperor (not the loot) in a triumphal procession = the chariot
11 hrs
Good point
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