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Off topic: 泰晤士(TIMES)四合院儿
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ysun  Identity Verified
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考证 Jul 27, 2015

Steve,

我略加考证后发现,你那位校友是北京大学新闻与传播学院教授(估计已退休)。她父亲是北大著名数学教授,母亲是著名幼儿音乐教育家和作曲家。

我原来一直以为,北京101中的学生绝大部分是高干子女。根据你的介绍以及她的文章,我才知道后来也有不少凭自己真本事考进去的高知子女。


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QHE
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Wang Daoyuan's Admonishment Jul 29, 2015

《吾师王任》 作者:刘春声
http://home.blshe.com/blog.php?uid=16222&id=69704


老师字尔遐,是我国著名书法家、画家、篆刻家和书画鉴赏家、教育家。

*** ***

提起老师的父亲王道元先生,知道的人可能不多。但提起北京四中,怕是无人不知无人不晓。北京四中的创始人就是王道元先生。

王道元先生是中国近现代民主革命家、教育家,思想开明,崇尚科学民主,富有积极进取精神,其学养渊博,工词章,谙西语,懂现代科学。时与熊希龄、蔡元培、李大钊、陈云诰、鲁迅、齐如山、齐寿山、俞同奎、柯璜、符定一(毛泽东的老师)、钟刚中、郭风惠、徐悲鸿等文化界、教育界的著名人物相友善。是著名“稊园诗社”的重要成员。

1907年,京师顺天中学堂成立。1912年9月29日,京师顺天中学堂改称京师公立第四中学校,王道元先生出任该校首任校长。从此,后人把每年的9月29日定为四中生日。尊王道元先生为四中“奠基人”。

在北京四中的一块巨石上,镌刻着北京四中训诫,为当年王道元先生所撰,吾师王任手书:

“须知人之所以生,要以自食其力为本根,以协同尚义为荣卫。所貢献于群众者不嗇,斯群众之报施我者必风。藉势倚权,常与祸构,不可为也。故求其可恃莫如学,势可踣也。学不得而閟也。今学者每期期焉,以学不见用为虑,而不以致用不足为忧,竊以为过矣。不知学无止境,致用亦无止境,有生之年,皆学之日。其受用处,非根器浅薄者所能知,亦非佻达紈絝者所能任也。诸生方盛年,志高而气锐,将欲厚其积储以大效于世耶?抑将浅尝自放以侪于俗耶?是不可不审所处矣。诸生勉乎哉!”

这段文字,摘自1919年王道元先生为《京师公立第四中学校第八级毕业生通讯录》撰写的序言,表达了他对四中学子的谆谆嘱托和殷切希望,体现了王道元先生深刻的教育思想。

*** ***








[Edited at 2015-07-29 01:52 GMT]

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David Lin  Identity Verified
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圣经的翻译 Jul 29, 2015

pkchan wrote: 網上找到的翻譯



“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

公平如流水之滚滚、仁义如巨川之源源

― Martin Luther King Jr.

稍為修改一下:

公平滚滚如流水、仁义源源如巨川。


该碑文源自《旧约圣经》 Old Testament 的阿摩司书 Amos 5 章 24 节。

民权领袖马丁路德。金博士 Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. 生前是美国基督教联合卫理公会牧师,引用圣经道理,其来有自。

阿摩司书 5:24 在 New King James Version 圣经译本的英文翻译如下:

5:24 But let justice run down like water,
And righteousness like a mighty stream.

《中文圣经和合本》于 1919 年的翻译如下:

”惟 愿 公 平 如 大 水 滚 滚 , 使 公 义 如 江 河 滔 滔 。 “

近期的《圣经和合本修订版》 (2010 出版)稍为修改如下:

”惟 愿 公 平 如 大 水 滚 滚 , 公 义 如 江 河 滔 滔 。“ 

阿摩司书约于主前八世纪中叶写成。这位先知看出虽然当时以色列国正值繁荣,人民过著安定的生活,但是繁荣只限于富有的人,他们过著浮华淫乐的生活,而穷人仍然忍受著不公平的待遇和压迫。

所谓安定繁荣,也只是一个表面的状况。

《旧约圣经》由希伯来文写成,后来才译成英文。而中文译本多数依据英文版并参考希伯来原文后翻译过来,所以已经是译完又译的结果。

同意 Steve 认为 “righteousness" 应译成 ”公义“ 才对。

网上尝试译成 ”仁义“ 恐怕有歧义,下帖再谈。

供参考讨论。

[Edited at 2015-07-29 20:18 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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北京四中训诫碑 Jul 29, 2015

QHE wrote:



2008年我去四中参观时,曾见过这块训诫碑。下面照片上的大石头,就是那块训诫碑之所在。四中著名校友薄某、林某要是听从老校长的这句话:“藉势倚权,常与祸构,不可为也”,如今也就不至于陷身囹圄或暴尸荒野了。

DSC04365 copy


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ysun  Identity Verified
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祸兮福之所倚,福兮祸之所伏 Jul 29, 2015

高知子女进入高干子女云集的学校,也不见得完全是件好事。徐泓在她的文章中提到,她在1964年就挨了批。所幸她于1965年就从101中毕业了。北航教授吴礼义先生的女儿,1966年在101中念初三。她就没那么幸运了。

北航吴礼义教授简介
http://www.ase.buaa.edu.cn/xwzx/xwdt/18040.htm


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ysun  Identity Verified
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即使是他哥,虱子也照样咬 Jul 29, 2015

习远平:父亲往事

http://news.ifeng.com/a/20140819/41633567_0.shtml

见第4页:
1968年,哥哥15岁,因父亲问题的牵连,被有关部门多次关押审查,出来时,身体非常虚弱,全身都是虱子。哥哥到关中富平老家大姑家里休息很长时间,大姑一天一碗鲜羊奶喂着,他才慢慢调养好。

1968年,习远平的这位哥哥应该还是101中的学生。

[Edited at 2015-07-29 23:40 GMT]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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吴礼义 先生安息 Jul 30, 2015

ysun wrote:

高知子女进入高干子女云集的学校,也不见得完全是件好事。徐泓在她的文章中提到,她在1964年就挨了批。所幸她于1965年就从101中毕业了。北航教授吴礼义先生的女儿,1966年在101中念初三。她就没那么幸运了。

北航吴礼义教授简介
http://www.ase.buaa.edu.cn/xwzx/xwdt/18040.htm


吴礼义先生 生前是我父母的好友,到英国留学前他们一齐在青木关受训, 后来他又是他们在一起打桥牌的其中一员。 我当时经常是坐在我父亲后面观战,因此对 吴伯伯和其他几位伯伯都很熟悉。 他一口湖北话,确实是非常风趣且平易近人的。

吴伯伯安息。


[Edited at 2015-07-30 01:11 GMT]


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忍辱忍痛克己为公 Jul 30, 2015

Steve,

尽管吴礼义先生曾遭遇不公正待遇,他那才上初三的女儿也被整得精神失常,他却依然全心全意地忠于教育和科研事业。这决不是一般人所能做到的。我虽然不认识吴礼义先生,但他的事迹令我十分敬佩。愿他安息!

http://www.ase.buaa.edu.cn/xwzx/xwdt/18040.htm
尽管在“文革”中个人及家庭受到冲击,但是他始终忠诚于党的教育事业,全身心地投入到教学和科研工作中。他为人正直、光明磊落,严于律己、宽以待人,谦虚谨慎、廉洁奉公,淡泊名利、顾全大局。他待人真诚、善良,为人谦和,关心学生和同事,受到广大师生和科技工作者的爱戴。吴先生高尚的思想品德、无私奉献的精神和严谨的治学风范为我国科技界树立了榜样,是我们学习的楷模,将永远留在我们心中。


[Edited at 2015-07-30 12:41 GMT]


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The ellipsis preceding the quote shouldn't be neglected Jul 30, 2015

David Lin wrote:

pkchan wrote: 網上找到的翻譯



“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

公平如流水之滚滚、仁义如巨川之源源

― Martin Luther King Jr.

稍為修改一下:

公平滚滚如流水、仁义源源如巨川。


该碑文源自《旧约圣经》 Old Testament 的阿摩司书 Amos 5 章 24 节。

民权领袖马丁路德。金博士 Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. 生前是美国基督教联合卫理公会牧师,引用圣经道理,其来有自。

阿摩司书 5:24 在 New King James Version 圣经译本的英文翻译如下:

5:24 But let justice run down like water,
And righteousness like a mighty stream.

《中文圣经和合本》于 1919 年的翻译如下:

”惟 愿 公 平 如 大 水 滚 滚 , 使 公 义 如 江 河 滔 滔 。 “

近期的《圣经和合本修订版》 (2010 出版)稍为修改如下:

”惟 愿 公 平 如 大 水 滚 滚 , 公 义 如 江 河 滔 滔 。“ 

阿摩司书约于主前八世纪中叶写成。这位先知看出虽然当时以色列国正值繁荣,人民过著安定的生活,但是繁荣只限于富有的人,他们过著浮华淫乐的生活,而穷人仍然忍受著不公平的待遇和压迫。

所谓安定繁荣,也只是一个表面的状况。

《旧约圣经》由希伯来文写成,后来才译成英文。而中文译本多数依据英文版并参考希伯来原文后翻译过来,所以已经是译完又译的结果。

同意 Steve 认为 “righteousness" 应译成 ”公义“ 才对。

网上尝试译成 ”仁义“ 恐怕有歧义,下帖再谈。

供参考讨论。



Thanks, David.

I think it's important to put the partial sentence of Martin Luther King, Jr.'s quotation of this verse from the Bible in the context of his famous "I Have a Dream" speech ...


http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkihaveadream.htm

There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?" We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. We can never be satisfied as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. *We cannot be satisfied as long as the negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped of their self-hood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating: "For Whites Only."* We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until "justice rolls down like waters, and righteousness like a mighty stream."


As I mentioned before, it is probably much more powerful to maintain the free-verse oratorical style of the original; thus it might be better not to artificially have two fragments in exact pairing and juxtaposition as in a Chinese couplet(上下联对仗), which IMO unnecessarily changes the dynamic of his speech.

Instead, a more prose-like translation might work better in capturing its spirit. For example:

...... 直至公平如溪水般源源流淌、正义如江河一样浪潮汹涌

or 势不可当、 汹涌澎拜 etc.

Anyway, it's just a thought of mine. I'm sure there are many better translations; plus mine is probably not all that good to begin with. But I'm mainly talking about the issue of preserving the style and intonation of King's original speech. To put this partial sentence in the form of a Chinese couplet IMO just doesn't quite carry the right tone.


[Edited at 2015-07-31 13:54 GMT]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Justice Jul 30, 2015

http://www.zdic.net/c/3/13d/304049.htm
正义(正義) 
(1) [justice]∶公正的、正当的道理
主持正义
(2) [exact implication]∶正确的含义,古时多用做书名,如《五经正义》
(3) [just]∶公道的、有利于人民的

http://www.zdic.net/c/1/111/299957.htm
仁义(仁義) 
(1) [kindheartedness and justice]∶宽厚正直
故文王行仁义而王天下。——《韩非子·五蠹》
仁义之举
(2) [gentle]〈方〉∶性情温顺,通达事理

http://www.zdic.net/c/c/3f/98316.htm
公义(公義) 
亦作“ 公议 ”。 1.公正的义理。《荀子·修身》:“怒不过夺,喜不过予,是法胜私也。《书》曰:‘无有作好,遵王之道。无有作恶,遵王之路。’此言君子之以公义胜私欲也。” 汉 荀悦 《汉纪·武帝纪二》:“圣人以天下为度者也,不以私怒伤天下公议。” 宋 秦观 《白敏中论》:“夫公义私恩适不两全,犹当以道,权其轻重,奈何无故而废之哉。” 鲁迅 《华盖集续编·死地》:“历史上所记的关于改革的事,总是先仆后继者,大部分自然是由于公义。”
2.公众的议论,舆论。《后汉书·袁术传》:“ 绍 议欲立 刘虞 为帝, 术 好放纵,惮立长君,託以公义不肯同,积此,衅隙遂成。” 唐 韩愈 《顺宗实录五》:“﹝ 执谊 ﹞既而为 叔文 所引用,初不敢负 叔文 ,迫公议,时时有异同。”《二刻拍案惊奇》卷十二:“ 晦翁 错问了事,公议不平,沸腾喧嚷。”


我觉得 Justice 在这个语境中翻成 "正义" 是比较恰当的。 "仁义" 一般多指个人或局部的团体;"正义"、"公正" 则更适于形容整个的社会和体制。

Like I said, this is only my feel for these Chinese terms; it's not necessarily correct.


[Edited at 2015-07-30 21:50 GMT]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Once in a blue moon Jul 30, 2015

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/29/world/blue-moon-july-31-irpt/index.html



Rare blue moon comes Friday
By Jareen Imam, CNN

(CNN)If anything unusual happens to you Friday, you'll be right to say it was "once in a blue moon."

The July 31 appearance of the month's second full moon will be the first such occurrence in the Americas since August 2012. Every month has a full moon, but because the lunar cycle and the calendar year aren't perfectly synched, about every three years we wind up with two in the same calendar month.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeDEz_HRd_s


Once In A Very Blue Moon (Nanci Griffith)


I found your letter in my mailbox today
You were just checking if I was okay
And if I miss you, well you know what they say
Just once in a very blue moon
Just once in a very blue moon
Just once in a very blue moon
And I feel one coming on soon


No need to tell me you'd like to be friends
And help me get back on my feet again
And if I miss you, well it's just now and then
Just once in a very blue moon
Just once in a very blue moon
Just once in a very blue moon
And I feel one coming on soon


There's a blue moon shining
When I am reminded of all we've been through
Such a blue moon shining
Does it ever shine down on you?


You act as if it never hurt you at all
Like I'm the only one who's getting up from a fall
Don't you remember, can't you recall
Just once in a very blue moon
Just once in a very blue moon?
Just once in a very blue moon
And I feel one coming on soon
Just once in a very blue moon

~*~*~*~*~*

http://www.proz.com/post/507006#507006


[Edited at 2015-07-31 00:23 GMT]


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Blue Moon Jul 31, 2015

wherestip wrote: Once in a blue moon




Blue Moon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2k7-gCMA74

- Heidi Feek
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4k8KdoshQY

- Nat King Cole
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21scyhRP_IU

- Billie Holiday
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LOB_I7sgoI

- July Night Sky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wjyacQxc1w



[Edited at 2015-07-31 02:46 GMT]

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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Oops Aug 1, 2015

wherestip wrote:

Justice

http://www.zdic.net/c/3/13d/304049.htm
正义(正義) 
(1) [justice]∶公正的、正当的道理
主持正义
(2) [exact implication]∶正确的含义,古时多用做书名,如《五经正义》
(3) [just]∶公道的、有利于人民的

http://www.zdic.net/c/1/111/299957.htm
仁义(仁義) 
(1) [kindheartedness and justice]∶宽厚正直
故文王行仁义而王天下。——《韩非子·五蠹》
仁义之举
(2) [gentle]〈方〉∶性情温顺,通达事理

http://www.zdic.net/c/c/3f/98316.htm
公义(公義) 
亦作“ 公议 ”。 1.公正的义理。《荀子·修身》:“怒不过夺,喜不过予,是法胜私也。《书》曰:‘无有作好,遵王之道。无有作恶,遵王之路。’此言君子之以公义胜私欲也。” 汉 荀悦 《汉纪·武帝纪二》:“圣人以天下为度者也,不以私怒伤天下公议。” 宋 秦观 《白敏中论》:“夫公义私恩适不两全,犹当以道,权其轻重,奈何无故而废之哉。” 鲁迅 《华盖集续编·死地》:“历史上所记的关于改革的事,总是先仆后继者,大部分自然是由于公义。”
2.公众的议论,舆论。《后汉书·袁术传》:“ 绍 议欲立 刘虞 为帝, 术 好放纵,惮立长君,託以公义不肯同,积此,衅隙遂成。” 唐 韩愈 《顺宗实录五》:“﹝ 执谊 ﹞既而为 叔文 所引用,初不敢负 叔文 ,迫公议,时时有异同。”《二刻拍案惊奇》卷十二:“ 晦翁 错问了事,公议不平,沸腾喧嚷。”


我觉得 Justice 在这个语境中翻成 "正义" 是比较恰当的。 "仁义" 一般多指个人或局部的团体;"正义"、"公正" 则更适于形容整个的社会和体制。

Like I said, this is only my feel for these Chinese terms; it's not necessarily correct.



I just now noticed that I accidentally got the terms "justice" and "righteousness" mixed up and was discussing the wrong term. I should have been looking at what the more accurate translation for "righteousness" was instead. I'm sorry about that.



http://www.chinese-word.com/data/2682-5.html



justice;
justness;
rightfulness;
righteousness




[Edited at 2015-08-01 11:26 GMT]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 19:46
Chinese to English
+ ...
Righteousness Aug 1, 2015

http://www.chinese-word.com/data2/righteousness.html

I personally still think the Chinese term "正义" is still the best fit for the word "righteousness" in the context of this quote.


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wherestip  Identity Verified
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 19:46
Chinese to English
+ ...
GT for reference Aug 1, 2015

Normally I wouldn't deign to use the English->Chinese feature of Google Translate to justify a translation, but since I'm not that familiar with the available online E->C resources that are relatively authoritative, for this once I wouldn't mind lowering the bar solely for demonstration purposes ...





https://translate.google.com/#en/zh-CN/righteousness

Definitions of righteousness
noun
the quality of being morally right or justifiable.
   we had little doubt about the righteousness of our cause


Translations of righteousness
noun
义         justice, righteousness, affiliation, association, bond, connection
正义      justice, righteousness, right





https://translate.google.com/#en/zh-CN/justice

Definitions of justice
noun
just behavior or treatment.
   a concern for justice, peace, and genuine respect for people
   synonyms: fairness, justness, fair play, fair-mindedness, equity, evenhandedness, impartiality, objectivity, neutrality, disinterestedness, honesty, righteousness, morals, morality

a judge or magistrate, in particular a judge of the supreme court of a country or state.
   It is, therefore, a matter of public interest who becomes judges of the lower courts and justices of the Supreme Court.
   synonyms: judge, magistrate, jurist


Translations of justice
noun
正义      justice, righteousness, right
义         justice, righteousness, affiliation, association, bond, connection
公道      justice
欣赏      appreciation, justice





Since I'm only plugging in isolated English words(into the lookup column), Google Translate might actually suffice in accuracy ... or at least it wouldn't do much harm.

You guys could also see why these two terms could easily get mixed up in discussion(like I did by not constantly referring back to the source). The way Martin Luther King, Jr. used them in his speech, they practically mean the same thing. But "waters" are many and smaller in size, while a "mighty stream" is much larger and more powerful; there therefore is the hint of a growing process. In this sense, the seemingly extraneous character "使" in the 1919 version Bible translation (that David referred to previously) is actually not all that farfetched.
 "惟 愿 公 平 如 大 水 滚 滚 , 使 公 义 如 江 河 滔 滔 。"

BTW, looking at the list of Chinese terms suggested by GT for "justice", "公道" might be a better choice than "公平", 'cause "公平" leans more towards "fairness". Actually, I was thinking "公正" a few pages of discussion back, but 公正 and 正义 sounds a bit repetitive, which I know that many folks frown upon in Chinese.


[Edited at 2015-08-01 15:11 GMT]


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